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[Laughter]

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okay um i think it's a good day for

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2020 the sun is out again

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this guy doesn't look like mars as far

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as i can see air is

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so so but um meteoroid didn't hit yet

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and

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we are still waiting for the big one in

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the bay area what's your work ethic like

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what do you do

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on a usual day

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there are no usual days so in some sense

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every day is

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its own and uh every day has its own

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demands and so on and

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i do block out times and do plan things

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ahead but

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for the most part i get up i have

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breakfast

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i work i spend time with the family in

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between

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and uh at some point uh i

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uh maybe read a few pages in a book or

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watch a movie with the family and go to

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bed do you tend to work in solid blocks

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uninterrupted because you need that for

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focus

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it depends on the type of work so when i

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uh write code

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i need long solitary times alone if i

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want to

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write a book i need to have a solid

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leaks

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weeks for myself so i don't write a book

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at this point um

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maybe i figure out how to do this anyway

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while being locked up with the family

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and when i do conceptual work and so on

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i can do this in short intervals and

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sometimes i do something else interrupt

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it

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something down

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we're going to get into some fairly deep

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questions right off the bat

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do you take a correspondence theory of

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truth for example

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i think that truth has is defined

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in a mathematical paradigm which means

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it's

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certain

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value that you set on

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variables that have the property that

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they can be

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true or false or have a truth value that

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varies in degrees

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and in some sense truth is a predicate

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that you can calculate

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in this context and uh you can

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translate this into the languages that

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our mind is typically using which are

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models and in these models we can have

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some kind of truth definition which

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means that the

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model depending on the type of model

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that you have

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can conform to any of your mathematical

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tools definitions so it can be

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something that is can be reduced to a

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set of axioms for instance

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and this means that it can be in some

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sense compressed to the

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set of axioms or expanded from the set

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of axioms into

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a certain state of that descriptive

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system

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and it's difficult to apply truth to

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an outside world so i don't believe in

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reference theory of truth these

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references can only exist between

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different models

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on the other hand we normally never talk

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about the outside world because it's

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this weird quantum graph that

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is not accessible to us and that we

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take to be the system that generates

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patterns on our retina

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and and on our systemic interface to the

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universe

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all these patterns rate models and

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different

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the primary one is an integrated model

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of the entire universe of interception

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is inspect

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or the perception of external things

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plus proprioception

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right so we in some sense have um

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res extensor and the rest cognitions to

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speak with descartes and res extensor is

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not the universe itself

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it's our model of the universe it's the

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idea that everything that we perceive

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corresponds to a region in the same

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three-dimensional space that is

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dynamically changing

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as a temporal extension as well and uh

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rescogins is everything else our ideas

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that we have about that the anticipation

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that we have hypotheses that we have

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memories

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that we have intentions that we have and

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so on

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and these two interact but there are

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several types of models that

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co-exist in our own mind and when we uh

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refer to something in the world we refer

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to something in the

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integrated model of the universe that we

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have that is changing

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and it's it's not static it's it's not

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reality

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for instance my model of the universe at

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some level contains colors and sounds

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and there are no colors and sounds in

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the physical universe

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offer them but

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uh colors and sounds are functions that

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our brain computes to interpret certain

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types of patterns in the universe

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so you're saying when we talk sorry so

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you're suggesting that the underlying

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reality is physical and

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it's a quantum graph what do you mean by

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uh what i mean is that there is an

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outside pattern generator and the

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physics is exploring the idea that this

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pattern generator can be explained by

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a causally closed set of rules right

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somewhere out there there is a system

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that

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experiences

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and the big insight of computation is

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that a

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computational system is the necessary

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and sufficient means to produce

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arbitrary patterns

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and we don't have alternatives to

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computational descriptions

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that are able to do that so

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it turns out that computation is a way

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to frame language

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and if we want to have languages that

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describe systems that can produce

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patterns and are self-consistent and can

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reduce the first principles these are

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computational systems

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and then when i say it's a quantum graph

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basically a graphical representation one

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that

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can hold for instance state

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and links between them that translate

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this state between the nodes

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this is a very general computational

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description and so

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in some sense we can describe everything

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especially extended things that play out

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in a space as a

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graph a space is basically a

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if you talk about something like a

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geometric space

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as a very very regular graph that

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happens if you zoom out far enough

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so there's basically a graph with so

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many nodes and so many links

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between them and so regular ways of

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translating information in them that you

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can

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describe the function of the entire

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thing in the limit

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all languages can be summarized in

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mathematics and then there's a subset

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that is computation

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and this is the one that corresponds to

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our world is that what you're suggesting

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so uh what i would say is that a way out

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look

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the domain of all languages

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and mathematicians are starting out with

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the simplest languages

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and exploring them and these are the

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formal languages those where

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you already know all the properties or

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you

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a good chance to explore most of the

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properties

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step by step and especially you can

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define them in such a way that you can

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make proofs in them and the reason why

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we explore mathematics are

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[Music]

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by default there's one that we want to

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understand uh the things that we only

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intuitively understand

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for instance geometry right we have an

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intuitive understanding of geometry and

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it's because our brain makes

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geometric models of the world that we

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are embedded in

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and so we want to have a way to talk

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about these models in a way that makes

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them explicit

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and uh allows us to debug them and

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allows us to

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express them as formal systems to teach

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them to check up

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on whether our minds did the geometry

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right and so on right

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and to have all these uh models of

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models these formal descriptions of

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geometry

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that's one reason why we need

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mathematics and it's one of the reasons

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why

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our present mathematical tradition

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started it's

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uh it started very often as geometrical

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descriptions

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have those in terms of formulas and so

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on are often

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a specification for the geometry and

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in some sense we teach mathematics of

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the wrong way around

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in school we teach kids algebra first

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as an extension of counting or

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generalization of counting

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and then you have something like x uh

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y equals say x square

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and this is an algebraic description

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right and then we learn how to graph

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these functions and then we

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uh notice oh my god this uh graph of

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this function looks a lot like a

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parabola what a coincidence

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and now we see if we can use this

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algebraic description to describe the

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parabola

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but uh i think that uh the invention was

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the other way around

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like the world is full of parabolas

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whenever you throw stuff you see a

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parabola

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and then you ask yourself uh what's

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going on here how can i systematize that

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and then you realize

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okay i can make a specification that

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makes this

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thing computable because i can compute

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the algorithmic description there's an

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algorithm for

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computing y equals x square

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right and this allows me to compute the

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trajectory of an object that i throw

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this is one of the ways that we

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discovered mathematics

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the other one is uh that all languages

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that we are using so

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logic uh is a

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mathematical principle and it's uh in

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some sense a subset of the natural

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languages that we use

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but we can extend it in such a way that

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it's encompassing

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the natural languages in a way and

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there was always a big hope that we

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could make logic so general

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that we can make natural languages so

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precise that they become

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the same thing that these languages in

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which we refer

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to facts can uh express things that we

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can prove

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in a formal strict sense in a way that

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we can build machines that can

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perform uh language and that can make

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statements

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that are true or false and so on we look

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at the world and we see some patterns

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and we try to model those patterns in

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mathematics as a great way of modeling

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those

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patterns is that essentially what you're

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so mathematics allows us to build

292
00:10:16,230 --> 00:10:14,079
arbitrary languages not just natural

293
00:10:17,350 --> 00:10:16,240
language but it also allows us to build

294
00:10:19,190 --> 00:10:17,360
languages that

295
00:10:21,990 --> 00:10:19,200
for instance start out with only with

296
00:10:24,310 --> 00:10:22,000
bits or that starts out with

297
00:10:26,310 --> 00:10:24,320
bit vectors and you could say that for

298
00:10:28,310 --> 00:10:26,320
instance a major learning system

299
00:10:30,150 --> 00:10:28,320
is using a language that as an input as

300
00:10:30,870 --> 00:10:30,160
a bit vector for instance the bit vector

301
00:10:33,509 --> 00:10:30,880
that comes in

302
00:10:35,430 --> 00:10:33,519
from a camera sensor and then it maps

303
00:10:36,230 --> 00:10:35,440
this to other bit vectors and just by

304
00:10:38,870 --> 00:10:36,240
finding or

305
00:10:40,310 --> 00:10:38,880
order in the patterns it it's able to

306
00:10:41,269 --> 00:10:40,320
gradually make some sense of these

307
00:10:42,790 --> 00:10:41,279
patterns it's

308
00:10:44,389 --> 00:10:42,800
able to relate them and it's for

309
00:10:47,670 --> 00:10:44,399
instance it's able to discover

310
00:10:49,910 --> 00:10:47,680
that if you feed it enough bit vectors

311
00:10:51,350 --> 00:10:49,920
all these bit vectors uh refer to

312
00:10:52,710 --> 00:10:51,360
objects in the three-dimensional space

313
00:10:54,790 --> 00:10:52,720
because that's the best compression that

314
00:10:56,470 --> 00:10:54,800
you find over them it's the best way

315
00:10:57,990 --> 00:10:56,480
to make sense of these patterns to build

316
00:10:59,190 --> 00:10:58,000
a model of these patterns that is most

317
00:11:01,670 --> 00:10:59,200
predictive

318
00:11:02,550 --> 00:11:01,680
of their structure and mathematics

319
00:11:05,190 --> 00:11:02,560
allows us

320
00:11:07,750 --> 00:11:05,200
to construct and understand the

321
00:11:10,630 --> 00:11:07,760
languages in which that takes place

322
00:11:11,269 --> 00:11:10,640
and you alluded to another thing that is

323
00:11:12,870 --> 00:11:11,279
uh

324
00:11:14,630 --> 00:11:12,880
the difference between computation and

325
00:11:16,870 --> 00:11:14,640
mathematics the

326
00:11:19,509 --> 00:11:16,880
classical definition of mathematics that

327
00:11:21,670 --> 00:11:19,519
we use in our tradition is mostly time

328
00:11:23,030 --> 00:11:21,680
and stateless it's basically everything

329
00:11:26,230 --> 00:11:23,040
is taking place

330
00:11:28,710 --> 00:11:26,240
in a single state so if you want to

331
00:11:29,509 --> 00:11:28,720
express a temporal sequence in

332
00:11:32,069 --> 00:11:29,519
mathematics

333
00:11:32,710 --> 00:11:32,079
you usually use an index and this index

334
00:11:35,750 --> 00:11:32,720
can be

335
00:11:38,069 --> 00:11:35,760
discrete or continuous and you just

336
00:11:39,509 --> 00:11:38,079
basically define something like a loop

337
00:11:40,949 --> 00:11:39,519
only it's not like a loop in a

338
00:11:43,269 --> 00:11:40,959
programming language which goes

339
00:11:44,630 --> 00:11:43,279
through this literally step by step to

340
00:11:46,150 --> 00:11:44,640
compute the sequence

341
00:11:47,829 --> 00:11:46,160
you have so instance an integral

342
00:11:48,630 --> 00:11:47,839
operator and this integral operator

343
00:11:51,350 --> 00:11:48,640
states

344
00:11:52,310 --> 00:11:51,360
that god makes a loop in one moment and

345
00:11:54,470 --> 00:11:52,320
this loop can

346
00:11:56,310 --> 00:11:54,480
integrate over infinitely many elements

347
00:11:59,110 --> 00:11:56,320
because god can do that right it's an

348
00:12:00,550 --> 00:11:59,120
idealized version of what mathematics

349
00:12:02,629 --> 00:12:00,560
can do and it turns out that there are

350
00:12:05,030 --> 00:12:02,639
no gods that have the power to

351
00:12:06,389 --> 00:12:05,040
take infinity melee elements and really

352
00:12:08,629 --> 00:12:06,399
integrate them

353
00:12:11,030 --> 00:12:08,639
what we can do is we can take a very

354
00:12:12,710 --> 00:12:11,040
very large number of elements that to us

355
00:12:15,110 --> 00:12:12,720
is almost indistinguishable from

356
00:12:17,110 --> 00:12:15,120
infinitely many elements and then we can

357
00:12:18,870 --> 00:12:17,120
integrate them in a pretty were pretty

358
00:12:19,430 --> 00:12:18,880
long time span of however long it takes

359
00:12:20,949 --> 00:12:19,440
but not

360
00:12:23,269 --> 00:12:20,959
over an infinite amount of time but if

361
00:12:24,310 --> 00:12:23,279
we had really infinitely many elements

362
00:12:27,110 --> 00:12:24,320
that you would try to

363
00:12:27,990 --> 00:12:27,120
throw together to integrate to put into

364
00:12:29,910 --> 00:12:28,000
one function

365
00:12:31,910 --> 00:12:29,920
and execute that function over these

366
00:12:33,670 --> 00:12:31,920
elements this is not possible

367
00:12:35,670 --> 00:12:33,680
in anything that is implemented in the

368
00:12:37,030 --> 00:12:35,680
physical universe and it's also not

369
00:12:39,190 --> 00:12:37,040
possible for anything that is

370
00:12:42,150 --> 00:12:39,200
implemented in mathematics itself

371
00:12:44,069 --> 00:12:42,160
without leading into contradictions so

372
00:12:47,190 --> 00:12:44,079
in some sense what google discovered

373
00:12:49,269 --> 00:12:47,200
i think is that mathematics this

374
00:12:51,190 --> 00:12:49,279
infinities that actually uses these

375
00:12:52,710 --> 00:12:51,200
infinities to compute things is leading

376
00:12:54,230 --> 00:12:52,720
into contradictions

377
00:12:55,990 --> 00:12:54,240
and the thing that doesn't do that that

378
00:12:59,030 --> 00:12:56,000
only uses states

379
00:13:01,030 --> 00:12:59,040
that we can in some sense count up and

380
00:13:03,110 --> 00:13:01,040
uh actually execute on this is

381
00:13:04,310 --> 00:13:03,120
computation the subset of mathematics

382
00:13:07,430 --> 00:13:04,320
that can be constructed

383
00:13:08,629 --> 00:13:07,440
constructive mathematics and

384
00:13:10,550 --> 00:13:08,639
i would say that constructive

385
00:13:13,509 --> 00:13:10,560
mathematics is not

386
00:13:15,430 --> 00:13:13,519
a subset of mathematics unless you say

387
00:13:17,110 --> 00:13:15,440
that mathematics also encompasses those

388
00:13:18,470 --> 00:13:17,120
things that don't work

389
00:13:20,310 --> 00:13:18,480
right you could say mathematics is all

390
00:13:21,509 --> 00:13:20,320
languages also those languages that are

391
00:13:22,870 --> 00:13:21,519
utter nonsense because they are

392
00:13:25,190 --> 00:13:22,880
contradictory

393
00:13:27,350 --> 00:13:25,200
um that that is one way of looking at it

394
00:13:29,269 --> 00:13:27,360
but the part of mathematics that works

395
00:13:30,629 --> 00:13:29,279
is computation the part of mathematics

396
00:13:33,190 --> 00:13:30,639
that can be implemented

397
00:13:34,949 --> 00:13:33,200
and i think for something to be real it

398
00:13:36,710 --> 00:13:34,959
needs to be implemented

399
00:13:38,629 --> 00:13:36,720
something that is not implementable

400
00:13:41,030 --> 00:13:38,639
something that cannot be realized as a

401
00:13:44,150 --> 00:13:41,040
system that is executable by anything

402
00:13:46,550 --> 00:13:44,160
in mathematics or in physics

403
00:13:48,150 --> 00:13:46,560
is not real right so constructive

404
00:13:49,030 --> 00:13:48,160
mathematics is the part of mathematics

405
00:13:52,389 --> 00:13:49,040
that has a chance

406
00:13:54,629 --> 00:13:52,399
of being real right now

407
00:13:56,150 --> 00:13:54,639
when you say real do you mind defining i

408
00:13:57,829 --> 00:13:56,160
know you just subtly defined it do you

409
00:14:00,629 --> 00:13:57,839
mind explicitly defining what

410
00:14:01,670 --> 00:14:00,639
real is because the way that i'm

411
00:14:02,870 --> 00:14:01,680
thinking about this is

412
00:14:04,230 --> 00:14:02,880
you just mentioned there's classical

413
00:14:05,110 --> 00:14:04,240
mathematics let's just call it classical

414
00:14:06,949 --> 00:14:05,120
mathematics

415
00:14:09,269 --> 00:14:06,959
and it leads to contradictions like

416
00:14:10,790 --> 00:14:09,279
girdle mentioned and one way of

417
00:14:11,750 --> 00:14:10,800
interpreting that is there are limits to

418
00:14:13,509 --> 00:14:11,760
our knowledge there are limits to

419
00:14:14,949 --> 00:14:13,519
mathematics another way is that this is

420
00:14:16,949 --> 00:14:14,959
the wrong mathematics this is not what

421
00:14:19,350 --> 00:14:16,959
is describing our universe what's real

422
00:14:21,350 --> 00:14:19,360
is something else so girdle you actually

423
00:14:22,629 --> 00:14:21,360
said that this is a blind alley don't go

424
00:14:23,829 --> 00:14:22,639
down that alley rather than

425
00:14:25,670 --> 00:14:23,839
this is the alley and here's our

426
00:14:27,590 --> 00:14:25,680
limitations you're like no no no

427
00:14:30,470 --> 00:14:27,600
here's constructive mathematics and

428
00:14:32,310 --> 00:14:30,480
you're saying that this is real okay

429
00:14:35,110 --> 00:14:32,320
help me understand what you mean when

430
00:14:39,110 --> 00:14:37,430
uh just as a small tangent i think it's

431
00:14:42,389 --> 00:14:39,120
unfair to goodell to

432
00:14:42,949 --> 00:14:42,399
pretend that this is what he thought he

433
00:14:46,550 --> 00:14:42,959
said

434
00:14:47,990 --> 00:14:46,560
good actually believed in in this god of

435
00:14:49,110 --> 00:14:48,000
mathematics that came to these

436
00:14:50,629 --> 00:14:49,120
infinities

437
00:14:52,150 --> 00:14:50,639
and it was a big shock to him when he

438
00:14:55,350 --> 00:14:52,160
came up with this proof and

439
00:14:57,189 --> 00:14:55,360
uh so in some sense he

440
00:14:58,790 --> 00:14:57,199
discovered something about the

441
00:15:01,030 --> 00:14:58,800
mathematics that he believed in that

442
00:15:04,550 --> 00:15:01,040
seemed to be real to him

443
00:15:06,470 --> 00:15:04,560
that he could not really get square

444
00:15:08,310 --> 00:15:06,480
and it's also a thing that a lot of

445
00:15:09,910 --> 00:15:08,320
mathematicians and physicists struggle

446
00:15:13,030 --> 00:15:09,920
for instance i think it's part of

447
00:15:15,590 --> 00:15:13,040
what motivates roger penrose when he

448
00:15:17,750 --> 00:15:15,600
uh rejects the idea that computers can

449
00:15:20,230 --> 00:15:17,760
be conscious because he thinks

450
00:15:21,350 --> 00:15:20,240
that human minds can do non-computable

451
00:15:24,629 --> 00:15:21,360
mathematics

452
00:15:26,470 --> 00:15:24,639
in the same way as good to him goodell

453
00:15:27,509 --> 00:15:26,480
has proven that computers cannot do all

454
00:15:31,269 --> 00:15:27,519
of mathematics but

455
00:15:33,030 --> 00:15:31,279
human minds can for instance there uh

456
00:15:34,389 --> 00:15:33,040
penrose has discovered these penrose

457
00:15:36,470 --> 00:15:34,399
tilings these are uh

458
00:15:38,069 --> 00:15:36,480
there are tidings which uh have an

459
00:15:38,949 --> 00:15:38,079
infinite variation right there are

460
00:15:40,629 --> 00:15:38,959
infinities

461
00:15:42,710 --> 00:15:40,639
how can you claim that there are no

462
00:15:44,150 --> 00:15:42,720
infinities but you can

463
00:15:46,230 --> 00:15:44,160
you're only looking at a function i

464
00:15:49,350 --> 00:15:46,240
think that basically

465
00:15:51,990 --> 00:15:49,360
has an open-ended result it's similar to

466
00:15:53,110 --> 00:15:52,000
the function that computes pi pi is not

467
00:15:56,310 --> 00:15:53,120
just a value

468
00:15:58,230 --> 00:15:56,320
pi is a function or a set of functions

469
00:15:59,990 --> 00:15:58,240
that give you for instance if you

470
00:16:00,470 --> 00:16:00,000
translate this into the decimal system

471
00:16:05,269 --> 00:16:00,480
digits

472
00:16:07,189 --> 00:16:05,279
afford

473
00:16:09,110 --> 00:16:07,199
but you can never have a function that

474
00:16:09,910 --> 00:16:09,120
relies on having known the last digit of

475
00:16:11,590 --> 00:16:09,920
pi

476
00:16:13,430 --> 00:16:11,600
where there is nothing where you feed in

477
00:16:15,430 --> 00:16:13,440
pi and you get a result

478
00:16:17,670 --> 00:16:15,440
you can only feed in a number of digits

479
00:16:21,110 --> 00:16:17,680
of pi and you get a partial result

480
00:16:22,710 --> 00:16:21,120
and uh this result has the property that

481
00:16:24,790 --> 00:16:22,720
for

482
00:16:26,230 --> 00:16:24,800
it converges because the digits that you

483
00:16:28,470 --> 00:16:26,240
get

484
00:16:29,910 --> 00:16:28,480
denotes smaller and smaller fractions of

485
00:16:32,150 --> 00:16:29,920
pi and so the

486
00:16:34,230 --> 00:16:32,160
results tend to converge to something

487
00:16:35,430 --> 00:16:34,240
but ultimately you don't know the end of

488
00:16:38,230 --> 00:16:35,440
it

489
00:16:38,710 --> 00:16:38,240
and uh so we have to be fair to girdle

490
00:16:41,350 --> 00:16:38,720
to

491
00:16:43,749 --> 00:16:41,360
uh he he did not believe in computation

492
00:16:46,470 --> 00:16:43,759
as a solution he's he was uh

493
00:16:47,829 --> 00:16:46,480
strongly buried to this pre-constructive

494
00:16:48,870 --> 00:16:47,839
mathematics and non-constructive

495
00:16:51,509 --> 00:16:48,880
mathematics and

496
00:16:52,230 --> 00:16:51,519
he basically thought that mathematics is

497
00:16:53,990 --> 00:16:52,240
somehow

498
00:16:55,430 --> 00:16:54,000
it has a big problem in itself and it

499
00:16:57,110 --> 00:16:55,440
doesn't it was just a problem of the

500
00:16:57,590 --> 00:16:57,120
formatization that mathematicians have

501
00:17:00,949 --> 00:16:57,600
been

502
00:17:03,430 --> 00:17:00,959
using for a long time okay so uh let's

503
00:17:06,789 --> 00:17:03,440
get back to your original question

504
00:17:08,870 --> 00:17:06,799
yeah well we just have it up again

505
00:17:09,990 --> 00:17:08,880
what is real also we're talking about

506
00:17:13,350 --> 00:17:10,000
this pi

507
00:17:15,110 --> 00:17:13,360
does the number pi exist oh no

508
00:17:16,870 --> 00:17:15,120
like this sounds a bit odd but to some

509
00:17:18,309 --> 00:17:16,880
people it's like well the pythagorean

510
00:17:19,189 --> 00:17:18,319
theorem was discovered it wasn't

511
00:17:22,309 --> 00:17:19,199
invented that

512
00:17:25,029 --> 00:17:22,319
the pythagorean theorem for example is

513
00:17:25,510 --> 00:17:25,039
true regardless of if humans are around

514
00:17:27,750 --> 00:17:25,520
okay

515
00:17:29,909 --> 00:17:27,760
then we can say does one exist did we

516
00:17:32,470 --> 00:17:29,919
discover the number one or did it exist

517
00:17:33,190 --> 00:17:32,480
and then we can similarly ask does pi

518
00:17:38,230 --> 00:17:33,200
exist

519
00:17:41,750 --> 00:17:41,350
i think that pi is being constructed and

520
00:17:44,150 --> 00:17:41,760
there

521
00:17:45,669 --> 00:17:44,160
are is a procedure for this construction

522
00:17:47,830 --> 00:17:45,679
that we have discovered

523
00:17:49,669 --> 00:17:47,840
and pi is as real as the mandelbrot

524
00:17:51,750 --> 00:17:49,679
fractal

525
00:17:52,870 --> 00:17:51,760
there is real in pretty much the same

526
00:17:56,230 --> 00:17:52,880
sense right there is this

527
00:17:58,070 --> 00:17:56,240
pattern that is self-contained

528
00:18:00,070 --> 00:17:58,080
it is uh there whether you are looking

529
00:18:03,270 --> 00:18:00,080
at it or not and it's a pattern

530
00:18:03,830 --> 00:18:03,280
that cannot physically exist at least

531
00:18:05,510 --> 00:18:03,840
not at

532
00:18:07,669 --> 00:18:05,520
an infinite resolution because it's a

533
00:18:08,310 --> 00:18:07,679
pattern that is defined with a procedure

534
00:18:10,470 --> 00:18:08,320
that

535
00:18:11,990 --> 00:18:10,480
gives you more resolution the deeper you

536
00:18:14,070 --> 00:18:12,000
get into it

537
00:18:15,750 --> 00:18:14,080
and you will never know the last details

538
00:18:17,350 --> 00:18:15,760
of the mandelbrot fractal and the same

539
00:18:20,230 --> 00:18:17,360
way you will never know

540
00:18:21,270 --> 00:18:20,240
the last details of pi right but there's

541
00:18:23,029 --> 00:18:21,280
a difference between

542
00:18:24,230 --> 00:18:23,039
whether or not we can know it whether or

543
00:18:25,350 --> 00:18:24,240
not it's computable and whether or not

544
00:18:28,230 --> 00:18:25,360
it exists

545
00:18:29,990 --> 00:18:28,240
i think that pi in the sense that you

546
00:18:32,390 --> 00:18:30,000
say it's

547
00:18:33,990 --> 00:18:32,400
defined with the last details does not

548
00:18:36,470 --> 00:18:34,000
exist but

549
00:18:37,190 --> 00:18:36,480
because it cannot be implemented there

550
00:18:40,470 --> 00:18:37,200
can be no

551
00:18:43,590 --> 00:18:40,480
system built into the universe that

552
00:18:46,950 --> 00:18:43,600
is uh expressing the last digits of pi

553
00:18:49,110 --> 00:18:46,960
so the last digits of pi do not exist

554
00:18:50,950 --> 00:18:49,120
in the sense that they are real that

555
00:18:51,830 --> 00:18:50,960
they are there somehow that they are out

556
00:18:53,590 --> 00:18:51,840
there

557
00:18:55,669 --> 00:18:53,600
and influence anything that they have a

558
00:18:58,150 --> 00:18:55,679
causal influence on something else

559
00:18:59,590 --> 00:18:58,160
and for something to exist it uh i think

560
00:19:01,190 --> 00:18:59,600
it is implemented

561
00:19:02,870 --> 00:19:01,200
in such a way that it has a causal

562
00:19:06,310 --> 00:19:02,880
influence on other things

563
00:19:08,630 --> 00:19:06,320
and uh can be uh consistently described

564
00:19:10,950 --> 00:19:08,640
with a model that is describing that

565
00:19:14,950 --> 00:19:10,960
causal influence

566
00:19:21,590 --> 00:19:18,070
not all of them so and right there's a

567
00:19:23,590 --> 00:19:21,600
large number n yeah so

568
00:19:25,110 --> 00:19:23,600
i would say that the integers are a

569
00:19:28,390 --> 00:19:25,120
model they're a way of

570
00:19:31,590 --> 00:19:28,400
talking about things that are real

571
00:19:32,950 --> 00:19:31,600
but it's pointless to say that this

572
00:19:34,789 --> 00:19:32,960
model exists

573
00:19:36,470 --> 00:19:34,799
because well it's a structure that is

574
00:19:38,070 --> 00:19:36,480
being constructed the

575
00:19:40,710 --> 00:19:38,080
implementation of the structure in your

576
00:19:43,830 --> 00:19:40,720
own mind is being constructed the

577
00:19:46,070 --> 00:19:43,840
realization of piano's arithmetic

578
00:19:48,310 --> 00:19:46,080
in a computational system exists in a

579
00:19:48,710 --> 00:19:48,320
way it's implemented to such a degree

580
00:19:52,070 --> 00:19:48,720
that

581
00:19:53,350 --> 00:19:52,080
can be stable enough to allow us to

582
00:19:55,350 --> 00:19:53,360
perform computations

583
00:19:56,789 --> 00:19:55,360
with a certain accuracy and at some

584
00:19:58,070 --> 00:19:56,799
point these computers are going to fall

585
00:20:01,430 --> 00:19:58,080
apart

586
00:20:03,270 --> 00:20:01,440
what i would say exists is

587
00:20:05,029 --> 00:20:03,280
one way of looking at this and it's

588
00:20:07,350 --> 00:20:05,039
basically a thesis that i don't know how

589
00:20:11,430 --> 00:20:07,360
to prove is that there is a causally

590
00:20:13,029 --> 00:20:11,440
closed lowest layer that exists

591
00:20:15,909 --> 00:20:13,039
and this is basically the mechanics of

592
00:20:19,510 --> 00:20:15,919
the universe some kind of automaton that

593
00:20:21,190 --> 00:20:19,520
produces everything that happens

594
00:20:23,510 --> 00:20:21,200
and there seems to be something right

595
00:20:26,789 --> 00:20:23,520
something seems to be real

596
00:20:28,310 --> 00:20:26,799
and um why is there something rather

597
00:20:30,230 --> 00:20:28,320
than laughing i don't know why that is

598
00:20:31,830 --> 00:20:30,240
in some sense it's the most obscene

599
00:20:33,510 --> 00:20:31,840
thing that something exists rather than

600
00:20:35,669 --> 00:20:33,520
nothing it's tremendous

601
00:20:37,110 --> 00:20:35,679
it's much more confusing than everything

602
00:20:39,590 --> 00:20:37,120
else i'm aware of

603
00:20:41,669 --> 00:20:39,600
and the easiest explanation for that is

604
00:20:44,549 --> 00:20:41,679
that existence is the default

605
00:20:46,830 --> 00:20:44,559
so perhaps everything that can exist

606
00:20:48,630 --> 00:20:46,840
which means implemented without

607
00:20:50,870 --> 00:20:48,640
contradictions

608
00:20:52,789 --> 00:20:50,880
exist somehow and so you have the

609
00:20:54,710 --> 00:20:52,799
superposition of all these computational

610
00:20:56,230 --> 00:20:54,720
operators and some of these

611
00:20:57,830 --> 00:20:56,240
regions of the resulting fractal

612
00:20:59,750 --> 00:20:57,840
contains s

613
00:21:01,430 --> 00:20:59,760
right so i'm sure you've heard of the

614
00:21:02,710 --> 00:21:01,440
multiverse this sounds similar to the

615
00:21:03,669 --> 00:21:02,720
multiverse that anything that can't

616
00:21:06,950 --> 00:21:03,679
happen

617
00:21:09,669 --> 00:21:06,960
form

618
00:21:11,430 --> 00:21:09,679
we had a power outage i'm sorry and the

619
00:21:14,549 --> 00:21:11,440
and the worst thing the oh

620
00:21:15,990 --> 00:21:14,559
the audio is gone okay okay that's okay

621
00:21:16,549 --> 00:21:16,000
i hope that you're recording on your

622
00:21:19,430 --> 00:21:16,559
site yes

623
00:21:20,870 --> 00:21:19,440
yeah yeah i am i'm thoroughly recording

624
00:21:23,510 --> 00:21:20,880
good

625
00:21:24,070 --> 00:21:23,520
okay yeah okay he is conspiring against

626
00:21:25,590 --> 00:21:24,080
us

627
00:21:27,669 --> 00:21:25,600
yeah that's all right it doesn't want

628
00:21:31,029 --> 00:21:27,679
the secrets revealed

629
00:21:32,470 --> 00:21:31,039
okay okay so so yosha

630
00:21:34,310 --> 00:21:32,480
i was asking what's the difference

631
00:21:37,029 --> 00:21:34,320
between what you just mentioned

632
00:21:38,950 --> 00:21:37,039
and the multiverse idea which is

633
00:21:41,750 --> 00:21:38,960
something akin to

634
00:21:42,310 --> 00:21:41,760
whatever can exist whatever is possible

635
00:21:43,990 --> 00:21:42,320
exists

636
00:21:46,390 --> 00:21:44,000
in some way shape or form in some other

637
00:21:49,830 --> 00:21:46,400
universe i think that the

638
00:21:53,110 --> 00:21:49,840
uh multiverse in the everett villagram

639
00:21:56,470 --> 00:21:53,120
version this idea that there is

640
00:21:59,510 --> 00:21:56,480
basically at every decision of

641
00:22:01,270 --> 00:21:59,520
the quantum collapse

642
00:22:03,830 --> 00:22:01,280
the collapse of the wave function the

643
00:22:05,909 --> 00:22:03,840
universe splits into copies of itself

644
00:22:07,510 --> 00:22:05,919
is a slightly different conception it's

645
00:22:09,510 --> 00:22:07,520
basically a mathematical

646
00:22:10,830 --> 00:22:09,520
paradigm that describes that the

647
00:22:14,149 --> 00:22:10,840
universe is

648
00:22:16,149 --> 00:22:14,159
branching in ways that parts

649
00:22:17,909 --> 00:22:16,159
of the description of the universe no

650
00:22:21,190 --> 00:22:17,919
longer causally influence the other

651
00:22:23,270 --> 00:22:21,200
parts of the description of the universe

652
00:22:24,390 --> 00:22:23,280
imagine that you are describing the

653
00:22:27,110 --> 00:22:24,400
world as

654
00:22:27,750 --> 00:22:27,120
something like a cellular automaton and

655
00:22:29,430 --> 00:22:27,760
uh

656
00:22:30,789 --> 00:22:29,440
in the cellular automaton you have

657
00:22:32,870 --> 00:22:30,799
particles interaction

658
00:22:34,470 --> 00:22:32,880
interactions which might be like gliders

659
00:22:36,230 --> 00:22:34,480
in the game of life like these

660
00:22:38,390 --> 00:22:36,240
regular patterns that might influence

661
00:22:41,270 --> 00:22:38,400
each other and change state and

662
00:22:41,990 --> 00:22:41,280
move through the topology of a space

663
00:22:45,669 --> 00:22:42,000
that you define

664
00:22:47,270 --> 00:22:45,679
in a certain way and uh it this thing is

665
00:22:49,909 --> 00:22:47,280
defined in such a way that

666
00:22:51,669 --> 00:22:49,919
the computation of the entire thing is

667
00:22:55,029 --> 00:22:51,679
very inefficient because

668
00:22:59,270 --> 00:22:55,039
it at every step the thing splits up

669
00:23:01,350 --> 00:22:59,280
into many many sub topologies in which

670
00:23:02,630 --> 00:23:01,360
you have copies of these sliders or

671
00:23:04,390 --> 00:23:02,640
variants of these sliders

672
00:23:06,549 --> 00:23:04,400
moving about in different ways but only

673
00:23:09,110 --> 00:23:06,559
a subset of the gliders is going to

674
00:23:11,110 --> 00:23:09,120
influence the others so from the

675
00:23:13,750 --> 00:23:11,120
perspective of the future of this

676
00:23:15,750 --> 00:23:13,760
of any kind of system the only things

677
00:23:18,070 --> 00:23:15,760
that are real to you are those that can

678
00:23:20,789 --> 00:23:18,080
causely influence you

679
00:23:22,070 --> 00:23:20,799
and if something moves away from you in

680
00:23:24,230 --> 00:23:22,080
a way that it can no longer

681
00:23:26,230 --> 00:23:24,240
causally influence you and because it's

682
00:23:28,230 --> 00:23:26,240
no longer occupying the same space in a

683
00:23:29,669 --> 00:23:28,240
way

684
00:23:31,270 --> 00:23:29,679
but we basically have a space with

685
00:23:33,350 --> 00:23:31,280
dimensionality that increases and

686
00:23:36,390 --> 00:23:33,360
increases and increases

687
00:23:37,029 --> 00:23:36,400
and this might look like it's extremely

688
00:23:39,909 --> 00:23:37,039
wasteful

689
00:23:41,909 --> 00:23:39,919
but that's only from the perspective of

690
00:23:44,149 --> 00:23:41,919
somebody who is outside of the system

691
00:23:47,029 --> 00:23:44,159
and cares about one of the timelines

692
00:23:49,269 --> 00:23:47,039
of the system and we only exist visit

693
00:23:52,710 --> 00:23:49,279
one of those trajectories inside

694
00:23:54,710 --> 00:23:52,720
and for us we would only experience

695
00:23:56,149 --> 00:23:54,720
a smaller and smaller fraction of the

696
00:23:59,590 --> 00:23:56,159
resulting computation

697
00:24:01,269 --> 00:23:59,600
at every moment and or in the future as

698
00:24:02,549 --> 00:24:01,279
a in potentia

699
00:24:04,310 --> 00:24:02,559
and this is in some sense was this

700
00:24:06,310 --> 00:24:04,320
multiverse idea describes it's a

701
00:24:10,549 --> 00:24:06,320
particular mathematical formalism

702
00:24:12,310 --> 00:24:10,559
it's not exactly the same as uh the one

703
00:24:14,470 --> 00:24:12,320
the thing that i just described because

704
00:24:16,789 --> 00:24:14,480
that is independent of the idea of such

705
00:24:19,110 --> 00:24:16,799
a multiverse

706
00:24:20,789 --> 00:24:19,120
so uh what what i described is a way to

707
00:24:22,230 --> 00:24:20,799
look at the universe as something like

708
00:24:24,390 --> 00:24:22,240
in evolving fractals you have a

709
00:24:26,470 --> 00:24:24,400
generator function that produces

710
00:24:28,070 --> 00:24:26,480
all the possible generator function by

711
00:24:30,070 --> 00:24:28,080
just enumerating them and just

712
00:24:31,510 --> 00:24:30,080
executing them in parallel and as a

713
00:24:34,470 --> 00:24:31,520
result you get

714
00:24:36,310 --> 00:24:34,480
a time space and matter and structure

715
00:24:39,269 --> 00:24:36,320
matter is basically the structure that

716
00:24:40,789 --> 00:24:39,279
is evolving in this phase and is

717
00:24:42,710 --> 00:24:40,799
propelled along it and space

718
00:24:44,470 --> 00:24:42,720
is a set of locations that you can

719
00:24:45,750 --> 00:24:44,480
discern that can contain information

720
00:24:47,350 --> 00:24:45,760
that is discernible

721
00:24:49,590 --> 00:24:47,360
and the ways that the information can

722
00:24:53,190 --> 00:24:49,600
travel between these locations

723
00:24:54,789 --> 00:24:53,200
and uh yeah so you're saying that

724
00:24:55,990 --> 00:24:54,799
we can produce some subsets that are

725
00:24:57,590 --> 00:24:56,000
causally closed and then there are

726
00:24:59,269 --> 00:24:57,600
others that don't influence us at all

727
00:25:01,029 --> 00:24:59,279
and to us whoever lives within this

728
00:25:01,510 --> 00:25:01,039
causally closed place so you know what i

729
00:25:04,549 --> 00:25:01,520
mean they

730
00:25:06,230 --> 00:25:04,559
are constantly looping back to us so

731
00:25:08,149 --> 00:25:06,240
you send a signal into the universe this

732
00:25:08,710 --> 00:25:08,159
uni signal is going to influence certain

733
00:25:11,110 --> 00:25:08,720
things

734
00:25:13,110 --> 00:25:11,120
and as a result you you get feedback

735
00:25:13,430 --> 00:25:13,120
from this right you push a certain thing

736
00:25:15,669 --> 00:25:13,440
and

737
00:25:17,669 --> 00:25:15,679
you see the results of what you pushed

738
00:25:19,269 --> 00:25:17,679
because photons are bounced off that

739
00:25:22,230 --> 00:25:19,279
thing that you are pushing

740
00:25:22,549 --> 00:25:22,240
and there is a limit to that that is uh

741
00:25:26,310 --> 00:25:22,559
the

742
00:25:28,230 --> 00:25:26,320
something goes uh

743
00:25:29,909 --> 00:25:28,240
beyond the region from which light can

744
00:25:31,750 --> 00:25:29,919
reach us it's

745
00:25:34,149 --> 00:25:31,760
it no longer has a causal influence to

746
00:25:36,549 --> 00:25:34,159
us and the multiverse theory is that

747
00:25:38,870 --> 00:25:36,559
uh the there is not just this boundary

748
00:25:41,350 --> 00:25:38,880
uh in a very very large distance

749
00:25:43,029 --> 00:25:41,360
but there is a boundary next to us where

750
00:25:46,870 --> 00:25:43,039
we do things that

751
00:25:48,230 --> 00:25:46,880
lead to information flowing away from us

752
00:25:49,590 --> 00:25:48,240
and not coming back to us

753
00:25:51,669 --> 00:25:49,600
still there is a conservation of

754
00:25:52,870 --> 00:25:51,679
information this conservation of

755
00:25:55,430 --> 00:25:52,880
information is that

756
00:25:56,710 --> 00:25:55,440
we can always basically in some sense

757
00:25:58,789 --> 00:25:56,720
figure out what we did

758
00:26:00,070 --> 00:25:58,799
because all the influences that matter

759
00:26:02,549 --> 00:26:00,080
get back to us

760
00:26:04,070 --> 00:26:02,559
and of course uh the there is a little

761
00:26:05,830 --> 00:26:04,080
bit of a tautology in there

762
00:26:07,669 --> 00:26:05,840
if we are producing things in the

763
00:26:09,909 --> 00:26:07,679
universe with our actions that in some

764
00:26:11,510 --> 00:26:09,919
sense would generate new information

765
00:26:14,789 --> 00:26:11,520
that goes away from us and doesn't come

766
00:26:17,269 --> 00:26:14,799
back we would never know about it

767
00:26:19,190 --> 00:26:17,279
and in some sense the multiverse is an

768
00:26:22,549 --> 00:26:19,200
inevitable description

769
00:26:24,230 --> 00:26:22,559
of such a universe that where the

770
00:26:26,149 --> 00:26:24,240
collapse of the wave function can happen

771
00:26:26,710 --> 00:26:26,159
in multiple ways where are the other

772
00:26:29,269 --> 00:26:26,720
ways

773
00:26:30,950 --> 00:26:29,279
happening where are they going why is it

774
00:26:32,789 --> 00:26:30,960
that we only experience this particular

775
00:26:34,710 --> 00:26:32,799
collapse of the wave function and the

776
00:26:36,230 --> 00:26:34,720
multiverse theory is a possible answer

777
00:26:37,669 --> 00:26:36,240
to that

778
00:26:39,830 --> 00:26:37,679
and there are other possible answers to

779
00:26:41,990 --> 00:26:39,840
that um one could be that

780
00:26:44,070 --> 00:26:42,000
for instance the collapse of the wave

781
00:26:46,230 --> 00:26:44,080
function is deterministic

782
00:26:47,350 --> 00:26:46,240
in in this in a certain sense and that

783
00:26:50,070 --> 00:26:47,360
is

784
00:26:51,750 --> 00:26:50,080
means that it's influenced by things

785
00:26:54,549 --> 00:26:51,760
that are non-local

786
00:26:56,149 --> 00:26:54,559
and that we cannot pinpoint do you

787
00:27:00,549 --> 00:26:56,159
believe that the universe is ultimately

788
00:27:03,909 --> 00:27:02,870
i don't really have beliefs about that i

789
00:27:06,070 --> 00:27:03,919
i think that the

790
00:27:09,990 --> 00:27:06,080
conservation of information seems to

791
00:27:11,669 --> 00:27:10,000
imply that the universe is deterministic

792
00:27:13,110 --> 00:27:11,679
it also depends on what you see as

793
00:27:14,950 --> 00:27:13,120
determinism or in determinism a

794
00:27:16,870 --> 00:27:14,960
deterministic function is one that gives

795
00:27:18,470 --> 00:27:16,880
the same result every time

796
00:27:20,149 --> 00:27:18,480
so the universe being deterministic

797
00:27:22,389 --> 00:27:20,159
means we can't find a function

798
00:27:23,350 --> 00:27:22,399
that describes everything using the same

799
00:27:25,029 --> 00:27:23,360
function

800
00:27:27,110 --> 00:27:25,039
and if it's an independent deterministic

801
00:27:29,590 --> 00:27:27,120
one you get a different result

802
00:27:31,430 --> 00:27:29,600
every time as a transition between

803
00:27:34,710 --> 00:27:31,440
adjacent states of a system

804
00:27:38,070 --> 00:27:34,720
and you can express this by taking

805
00:27:40,870 --> 00:27:38,080
a deterministic function and adding some

806
00:27:42,710 --> 00:27:40,880
of infinitely long string of random

807
00:27:43,990 --> 00:27:42,720
numbers or a string of random numbers

808
00:27:46,789 --> 00:27:44,000
that is longer than

809
00:27:48,149 --> 00:27:46,799
you can observe and in this case you

810
00:27:51,750 --> 00:27:48,159
will have an irregularity

811
00:27:53,669 --> 00:27:51,760
that is not predictable and so

812
00:27:56,870 --> 00:27:53,679
you can always find in some sense a

813
00:27:58,870 --> 00:27:56,880
deterministic model to describe a system

814
00:27:59,990 --> 00:27:58,880
unless you can completely see how it's

815
00:28:02,950 --> 00:28:00,000
made

816
00:28:04,230 --> 00:28:02,960
up and this problem is that we cannot

817
00:28:06,070 --> 00:28:04,240
understand the makeup of an

818
00:28:06,950 --> 00:28:06,080
indeterministic system you cannot open a

819
00:28:09,350 --> 00:28:06,960
box and see

820
00:28:10,149 --> 00:28:09,360
a true random number generator because a

821
00:28:13,190 --> 00:28:10,159
true random

822
00:28:14,870 --> 00:28:13,200
number generator cannot be constructed

823
00:28:16,789 --> 00:28:14,880
and you can construct a function that

824
00:28:18,470 --> 00:28:16,799
gives you the digits of pi

825
00:28:20,070 --> 00:28:18,480
but you cannot construct a function that

826
00:28:24,070 --> 00:28:20,080
gives you a an

827
00:28:27,590 --> 00:28:25,830
what do you think is giving rise to the

828
00:28:29,510 --> 00:28:27,600
initial conditions you mentioned that

829
00:28:31,830 --> 00:28:29,520
maybe existence is the default

830
00:28:32,870 --> 00:28:31,840
what gives rise to that and what gives

831
00:28:34,870 --> 00:28:32,880
you the

832
00:28:36,310 --> 00:28:34,880
rules maybe there are no initial

833
00:28:38,870 --> 00:28:36,320
conditions

834
00:28:39,990 --> 00:28:38,880
so uh the big bang is not in some sense

835
00:28:41,909 --> 00:28:40,000
initial condition

836
00:28:43,590 --> 00:28:41,919
of the universe itself its initial

837
00:28:44,630 --> 00:28:43,600
condition from the perspective of an

838
00:28:47,110 --> 00:28:44,640
observer

839
00:28:48,070 --> 00:28:47,120
when we uh look at the universe we

840
00:28:53,029 --> 00:28:48,080
notice that

841
00:28:57,269 --> 00:28:55,269
there's it's not symmetrical right there

842
00:28:59,590 --> 00:28:57,279
isn't a symmetry in the universe

843
00:29:01,430 --> 00:28:59,600
but it's reversible in the sense that

844
00:29:03,350 --> 00:29:01,440
every state seems to have exactly one

845
00:29:06,470 --> 00:29:03,360
preceding state

846
00:29:08,710 --> 00:29:06,480
and this means that there are parts

847
00:29:10,549 --> 00:29:08,720
of the in the universe that remember

848
00:29:13,269 --> 00:29:10,559
other parts of the universe

849
00:29:14,710 --> 00:29:13,279
if you are for instance taking a a

850
00:29:15,430 --> 00:29:14,720
billiard ball and you send it through

851
00:29:18,549 --> 00:29:15,440
the universe

852
00:29:20,470 --> 00:29:18,559
then there is a reversibility in this

853
00:29:21,830 --> 00:29:20,480
because you could if you would trace uh

854
00:29:23,269 --> 00:29:21,840
all the interactions that the billiard

855
00:29:26,389 --> 00:29:23,279
ball enters uh

856
00:29:28,149 --> 00:29:26,399
directly and do this in the inverse you

857
00:29:30,070 --> 00:29:28,159
could basically restore the state that

858
00:29:30,710 --> 00:29:30,080
existed before the billiard ball entered

859
00:29:32,230 --> 00:29:30,720
it

860
00:29:34,549 --> 00:29:32,240
but you also see this fundamental

861
00:29:36,149 --> 00:29:34,559
asymmetry and this is the stuff behind

862
00:29:37,110 --> 00:29:36,159
the billiard ball remembers the billiard

863
00:29:38,710 --> 00:29:37,120
ball passing

864
00:29:40,149 --> 00:29:38,720
and the stuff before the billiard ball

865
00:29:41,669 --> 00:29:40,159
doesn't yet know that it comes it

866
00:29:42,630 --> 00:29:41,679
doesn't remember that the billiard ball

867
00:29:44,789 --> 00:29:42,640
will

868
00:29:45,830 --> 00:29:44,799
soon cross through this area and break

869
00:29:47,830 --> 00:29:45,840
some havoc

870
00:29:48,870 --> 00:29:47,840
and change things right and this means

871
00:29:50,950 --> 00:29:48,880
that there is this

872
00:29:52,070 --> 00:29:50,960
entropic arrow in the universe and this

873
00:29:55,430 --> 00:29:52,080
describes in

874
00:29:57,350 --> 00:29:55,440
in one direction that

875
00:29:59,830 --> 00:29:57,360
in which way information gets dispersed

876
00:30:02,549 --> 00:29:59,840
to the universe in which way locations

877
00:30:03,269 --> 00:30:02,559
begin remembering uh the state of other

878
00:30:05,029 --> 00:30:03,279
locations

879
00:30:07,110 --> 00:30:05,039
in which way information gets smeared

880
00:30:09,430 --> 00:30:07,120
around between locations

881
00:30:11,029 --> 00:30:09,440
and there is an ideal state that this

882
00:30:12,310 --> 00:30:11,039
hasn't happened yet where all the

883
00:30:13,830 --> 00:30:12,320
locations uh

884
00:30:15,269 --> 00:30:13,840
have information that self-contained

885
00:30:16,070 --> 00:30:15,279
that is not correlated with other

886
00:30:17,830 --> 00:30:16,080
information

887
00:30:19,430 --> 00:30:17,840
in other locations and this is the big

888
00:30:23,830 --> 00:30:19,440
bank state

889
00:30:25,590 --> 00:30:23,840
the opposite direction so

890
00:30:28,070 --> 00:30:25,600
if you would move to the time before the

891
00:30:30,149 --> 00:30:28,080
big bank state the entropic arrow points

892
00:30:32,149 --> 00:30:30,159
away from the big bang so basically

893
00:30:33,269 --> 00:30:32,159
uh all the directions that point away

894
00:30:36,789 --> 00:30:33,279
from the big bang

895
00:30:39,830 --> 00:30:36,799
in time are future of the big bang

896
00:30:42,389 --> 00:30:39,840
because they're all ones that remember a

897
00:30:44,870 --> 00:30:42,399
trajectory that ends in this ideal

898
00:30:45,430 --> 00:30:44,880
original state where the information is

899
00:30:47,190 --> 00:30:45,440
perfectly

900
00:30:48,549 --> 00:30:47,200
correlated with location but this

901
00:30:49,750 --> 00:30:48,559
doesn't mean that the big bank state has

902
00:30:51,830 --> 00:30:49,760
ever existed

903
00:30:53,350 --> 00:30:51,840
it's just a mathematical description of

904
00:30:56,470 --> 00:30:53,360
a singularity in

905
00:30:58,230 --> 00:30:56,480
our entropic era of time

906
00:30:59,990 --> 00:30:58,240
i'm not clear what you mean by that

907
00:31:01,830 --> 00:31:00,000
there's a memory of the

908
00:31:02,870 --> 00:31:01,840
of the state but either way when you say

909
00:31:04,470 --> 00:31:02,880
that there's the big bang and then

910
00:31:06,070 --> 00:31:04,480
there's an entropic arrow

911
00:31:08,549 --> 00:31:06,080
there's a huge mystery a mystery in

912
00:31:10,070 --> 00:31:08,559
physics about the arrow of time

913
00:31:11,990 --> 00:31:10,080
like what is time and why does it move

914
00:31:13,750 --> 00:31:12,000
forward is it static like you mentioned

915
00:31:15,909 --> 00:31:13,760
if we conceptualize the world in

916
00:31:16,950 --> 00:31:15,919
classical non-constructivist mathematics

917
00:31:20,870 --> 00:31:16,960
then there's no

918
00:31:24,389 --> 00:31:20,880
room for time what is time in your model

919
00:31:25,269 --> 00:31:24,399
it's time fundamental um i think that if

920
00:31:28,310 --> 00:31:25,279
you

921
00:31:31,990 --> 00:31:28,320
have a system that is

922
00:31:33,590 --> 00:31:32,000
multi-stable and it it's

923
00:31:35,669 --> 00:31:33,600
moving between these states right it

924
00:31:36,310 --> 00:31:35,679
needs to be able to be influenced by the

925
00:31:39,110 --> 00:31:36,320
environment

926
00:31:41,350 --> 00:31:39,120
and as a result form some kind of memory

927
00:31:43,830 --> 00:31:41,360
the memory means that

928
00:31:44,630 --> 00:31:43,840
as a result of an observation at the

929
00:31:46,710 --> 00:31:44,640
system-made

930
00:31:48,149 --> 00:31:46,720
environment it's changing its internal

931
00:31:51,269 --> 00:31:48,159
state in a particular

932
00:31:53,669 --> 00:31:51,279
deterministic way and

933
00:31:55,669 --> 00:31:53,679
the way that we've described our

934
00:31:58,630 --> 00:31:55,679
universe we noticed that

935
00:32:00,630 --> 00:31:58,640
we can describe our universe in terms of

936
00:32:03,190 --> 00:32:00,640
states of which some

937
00:32:05,509 --> 00:32:03,200
explain this current state by being its

938
00:32:07,750 --> 00:32:05,519
past

939
00:32:09,430 --> 00:32:07,760
you could also say imagine you enumerate

940
00:32:11,269 --> 00:32:09,440
all the possible universe states and

941
00:32:13,590 --> 00:32:11,279
some of these states will look like

942
00:32:14,389 --> 00:32:13,600
they contain the memory of past states

943
00:32:16,630 --> 00:32:14,399
because they are

944
00:32:17,590 --> 00:32:16,640
can be the result of a state transition

945
00:32:19,430 --> 00:32:17,600
where you are

946
00:32:20,870 --> 00:32:19,440
using a permutation on previous bits

947
00:32:22,950 --> 00:32:20,880
basically the laws of physics

948
00:32:24,149 --> 00:32:22,960
and you get to the next state and as if

949
00:32:27,509 --> 00:32:24,159
you go backwards

950
00:32:27,990 --> 00:32:27,519
you get a timeline and all the possible

951
00:32:30,630 --> 00:32:28,000
timelines

952
00:32:31,750 --> 00:32:30,640
in the space of uh the enumeration of

953
00:32:33,990 --> 00:32:31,760
universe states

954
00:32:35,350 --> 00:32:34,000
these are all the possible temporally

955
00:32:37,750 --> 00:32:35,360
extended universes

956
00:32:38,470 --> 00:32:37,760
from the perspective of an observer uh

957
00:32:41,509 --> 00:32:38,480
time is

958
00:32:42,470 --> 00:32:41,519
uh in some sense the rate of change in

959
00:32:45,029 --> 00:32:42,480
the environment

960
00:32:46,630 --> 00:32:45,039
as uh observed by the observer which

961
00:32:47,909 --> 00:32:46,640
means it's relative to the rate of

962
00:32:50,070 --> 00:32:47,919
change in the observer

963
00:32:52,389 --> 00:32:50,080
so from observer perspective time is

964
00:32:55,669 --> 00:32:52,399
intrinsically relativistic

965
00:32:58,470 --> 00:32:55,679
from uh the perspective of outside of

966
00:33:00,389 --> 00:32:58,480
the system which we cannot take

967
00:33:01,750 --> 00:33:00,399
time would be state transition so there

968
00:33:04,070 --> 00:33:01,760
is a way in which you

969
00:33:05,350 --> 00:33:04,080
would enumerate the states by uh

970
00:33:08,549 --> 00:33:05,360
defining a function

971
00:33:12,149 --> 00:33:09,990
okay you just mentioned from the

972
00:33:12,950 --> 00:33:12,159
perspective of of an observer outside

973
00:33:16,230 --> 00:33:12,960
the system

974
00:33:17,509 --> 00:33:16,240
now in general relativity an observer is

975
00:33:19,830 --> 00:33:17,519
what follows the time-like

976
00:33:21,110 --> 00:33:19,840
curve okay so you're in the cone can't

977
00:33:22,710 --> 00:33:21,120
be spaced like can't be null

978
00:33:25,350 --> 00:33:22,720
now if you ask what's what what the heck

979
00:33:26,950 --> 00:33:25,360
is the experience of a photon

980
00:33:28,950 --> 00:33:26,960
we can't do that because an observer is

981
00:33:30,950 --> 00:33:28,960
defined as what's in the time-like

982
00:33:32,710 --> 00:33:30,960
cone the thing is the photon is not

983
00:33:33,350 --> 00:33:32,720
multi-stable the photon does not change

984
00:33:35,430 --> 00:33:33,360
state

985
00:33:37,269 --> 00:33:35,440
right that's why the photon is not able

986
00:33:39,430 --> 00:33:37,279
to observe

987
00:33:41,350 --> 00:33:39,440
the photon can be absorbed and

988
00:33:44,149 --> 00:33:41,360
re-emitted with different properties but

989
00:33:46,149 --> 00:33:44,159
by itself the photon doesn't change

990
00:33:47,509 --> 00:33:46,159
and uh only a system that is able to

991
00:33:49,509 --> 00:33:47,519
change state can observe

992
00:33:51,430 --> 00:33:49,519
and so whenever you have a particle

993
00:33:53,269 --> 00:33:51,440
system like you and me right like a

994
00:33:55,350 --> 00:33:53,279
single one a single one though what

995
00:33:57,430 --> 00:33:55,360
about a single particle

996
00:33:58,470 --> 00:33:57,440
uh it depends what kind of particle but

997
00:34:00,870 --> 00:33:58,480
uh so

998
00:34:01,909 --> 00:34:00,880
in some sense you can describe every uh

999
00:34:05,029 --> 00:34:01,919
particle system

1000
00:34:06,549 --> 00:34:05,039
as some kind of a compound particle but

1001
00:34:08,629 --> 00:34:06,559
it's basically depends on whether you

1002
00:34:11,069 --> 00:34:08,639
can uh change a property

1003
00:34:12,470 --> 00:34:11,079
of of that particle without that

1004
00:34:15,990 --> 00:34:12,480
particle

1005
00:34:18,869 --> 00:34:16,000
uh changing its identity so to speak

1006
00:34:19,669 --> 00:34:18,879
right so uh as as soon as this model of

1007
00:34:22,069 --> 00:34:19,679
the particle that

1008
00:34:23,829 --> 00:34:22,079
no longer applies you use a different

1009
00:34:25,190 --> 00:34:23,839
description

1010
00:34:27,270 --> 00:34:25,200
you used to write for edge i don't know

1011
00:34:29,190 --> 00:34:27,280
if you still do but in the

1012
00:34:31,829 --> 00:34:29,200
last question you wrote what is the

1013
00:34:34,790 --> 00:34:31,839
optimal algorithm for finding truth

1014
00:34:36,389 --> 00:34:34,800
i'm curious to know what is the optimal

1015
00:34:38,869 --> 00:34:36,399
algorithm

1016
00:34:39,669 --> 00:34:38,879
i don't know that so uh in some sense

1017
00:34:43,109 --> 00:34:39,679
the

1018
00:34:45,030 --> 00:34:43,119
this is a question for people that work

1019
00:34:48,550 --> 00:34:45,040
in artificial intelligence

1020
00:34:50,950 --> 00:34:48,560
that is when you exist in

1021
00:34:52,550 --> 00:34:50,960
circumstances that are learnable you try

1022
00:34:53,829 --> 00:34:52,560
to learn about these circumstances you

1023
00:34:56,069 --> 00:34:53,839
make a model of them

1024
00:34:57,510 --> 00:34:56,079
what's the best algorithm that you can

1025
00:34:59,910 --> 00:34:57,520
employ to

1026
00:35:01,829 --> 00:34:59,920
discover a model of what state you're in

1027
00:35:03,270 --> 00:35:01,839
and you can show that for the general

1028
00:35:05,109 --> 00:35:03,280
case that's not possible not every

1029
00:35:07,589 --> 00:35:05,119
system is learnable

1030
00:35:08,710 --> 00:35:07,599
but it seems that the set of universes

1031
00:35:11,750 --> 00:35:08,720
that can contain

1032
00:35:14,150 --> 00:35:11,760
us has certain limitations right not

1033
00:35:16,390 --> 00:35:14,160
every possible universe can contain us

1034
00:35:19,030 --> 00:35:16,400
the universe that can contain us is must

1035
00:35:21,829 --> 00:35:19,040
be essentially a controllable universe

1036
00:35:23,349 --> 00:35:21,839
from our perspective it seems that in

1037
00:35:26,230 --> 00:35:23,359
some sense

1038
00:35:28,390 --> 00:35:26,240
atoms control elementary particles and

1039
00:35:31,349 --> 00:35:28,400
molecules control atoms

1040
00:35:32,870 --> 00:35:31,359
and cells control molecules and

1041
00:35:36,710 --> 00:35:32,880
organisms

1042
00:35:38,710 --> 00:35:36,720
control cells and societies control

1043
00:35:40,390 --> 00:35:38,720
organisms and so on right so we look at

1044
00:35:41,670 --> 00:35:40,400
the hierarchy of control

1045
00:35:43,670 --> 00:35:41,680
it's a one way of looking at the

1046
00:35:46,950 --> 00:35:43,680
complexity that we're seeing

1047
00:35:48,390 --> 00:35:46,960
and a system that is being controlled

1048
00:35:49,990 --> 00:35:48,400
that has has some kind of control

1049
00:35:52,950 --> 00:35:50,000
structure

1050
00:35:54,470 --> 00:35:52,960
implies that the controller implements a

1051
00:35:56,870 --> 00:35:54,480
model of that what is controlling

1052
00:35:58,550 --> 00:35:56,880
otherwise it couldn't control it

1053
00:36:00,310 --> 00:35:58,560
right if you can implement a model of

1054
00:36:01,270 --> 00:36:00,320
something it means that the model is

1055
00:36:03,270 --> 00:36:01,280
discoverable

1056
00:36:05,270 --> 00:36:03,280
which means that the system is learnable

1057
00:36:06,870 --> 00:36:05,280
a controllable universe is a learnable

1058
00:36:10,069 --> 00:36:06,880
universe

1059
00:36:12,470 --> 00:36:10,079
will look random to us

1060
00:36:14,630 --> 00:36:12,480
they're not controllable but what we can

1061
00:36:16,550 --> 00:36:14,640
see is largely controllable right there

1062
00:36:17,270 --> 00:36:16,560
are some zero point fluctuations of the

1063
00:36:19,990 --> 00:36:17,280
universe

1064
00:36:21,190 --> 00:36:20,000
that we cannot control we don't know uh

1065
00:36:22,630 --> 00:36:21,200
where they come from we don't know how

1066
00:36:25,109 --> 00:36:22,640
to influence them

1067
00:36:26,150 --> 00:36:25,119
and uh the particles that we are looking

1068
00:36:27,589 --> 00:36:26,160
at are those

1069
00:36:29,589 --> 00:36:27,599
parts of the fluctuation that are

1070
00:36:31,109 --> 00:36:29,599
regular enough to be described in some

1071
00:36:33,990 --> 00:36:31,119
kind of good control model

1072
00:36:34,550 --> 00:36:34,000
it's tempting to think of the universe

1073
00:36:39,190 --> 00:36:34,560
like

1074
00:36:41,349 --> 00:36:39,200
ocean that is in constant fluctuation

1075
00:36:42,710 --> 00:36:41,359
and these fluctuations look uh random to

1076
00:36:43,589 --> 00:36:42,720
something that is swimming on that

1077
00:36:47,430 --> 00:36:43,599
surface

1078
00:36:49,349 --> 00:36:47,440
regular patterns

1079
00:36:50,870 --> 00:36:49,359
for some things like water vortices and

1080
00:36:53,829 --> 00:36:50,880
these water vertices need to have

1081
00:36:55,190 --> 00:36:53,839
particular properties to be stable and

1082
00:36:57,589 --> 00:36:55,200
when they have these properties they're

1083
00:36:59,510 --> 00:36:57,599
almost indestructible

1084
00:37:01,270 --> 00:36:59,520
basically there are is a certain number

1085
00:37:03,030 --> 00:37:01,280
of molecules that need to be

1086
00:37:04,950 --> 00:37:03,040
involved in a certain way as a certain

1087
00:37:06,790 --> 00:37:04,960
speed and then suddenly you get a vortex

1088
00:37:09,349 --> 00:37:06,800
that is so stable that it can only be

1089
00:37:09,829 --> 00:37:09,359
broken up by hitting other vortices that

1090
00:37:12,550 --> 00:37:09,839
have

1091
00:37:14,150 --> 00:37:12,560
compatible or uh properties that are in

1092
00:37:17,030 --> 00:37:14,160
some relationship to that

1093
00:37:18,550 --> 00:37:17,040
right and this is roughly i think a

1094
00:37:19,349 --> 00:37:18,560
model of the particle dynamics that

1095
00:37:21,270 --> 00:37:19,359
you're looking at

1096
00:37:22,390 --> 00:37:21,280
there are some patterns in in the

1097
00:37:24,150 --> 00:37:22,400
overall dynamics

1098
00:37:25,910 --> 00:37:24,160
that are so stable that they can be

1099
00:37:26,710 --> 00:37:25,920
described by control models and can be

1100
00:37:28,790 --> 00:37:26,720
exploited

1101
00:37:31,349 --> 00:37:28,800
by higher level control structures so

1102
00:37:32,950 --> 00:37:31,359
they give rise to complexity

1103
00:37:34,710 --> 00:37:32,960
and the ones that can't we just don't

1104
00:37:37,109 --> 00:37:34,720
observe them or we observe them

1105
00:37:37,990 --> 00:37:37,119
as random or we observe them as noise

1106
00:37:40,870 --> 00:37:38,000
yes

1107
00:37:42,710 --> 00:37:40,880
they're not predictable right they in

1108
00:37:44,870 --> 00:37:42,720
some sense the meaning of information

1109
00:37:45,910 --> 00:37:44,880
is its relationship to change in other

1110
00:37:48,790 --> 00:37:45,920
information

1111
00:37:50,470 --> 00:37:48,800
so if you see a blip on your retina the

1112
00:37:52,710 --> 00:37:50,480
relationship of that blip

1113
00:37:53,750 --> 00:37:52,720
to other blips of red on your retina is

1114
00:37:56,630 --> 00:37:53,760
the meaning that this

1115
00:37:58,150 --> 00:37:56,640
blip has right this meaning that you

1116
00:38:00,150 --> 00:37:58,160
discover is a function

1117
00:38:01,990 --> 00:38:00,160
that describes the relationship of blips

1118
00:38:03,430 --> 00:38:02,000
on your retina to each other to these

1119
00:38:05,589 --> 00:38:03,440
different changes as

1120
00:38:07,510 --> 00:38:05,599
uh for instance people in a room that is

1121
00:38:07,910 --> 00:38:07,520
lit and that the sunshine's on and these

1122
00:38:09,510 --> 00:38:07,920
people

1123
00:38:11,030 --> 00:38:09,520
walk around they exchange ideas and the

1124
00:38:12,550 --> 00:38:11,040
room is three-dimensional and so on and

1125
00:38:13,589 --> 00:38:12,560
so on right this is the function that

1126
00:38:15,589 --> 00:38:13,599
your brain discovers

1127
00:38:17,190 --> 00:38:15,599
to describe all the blips on your retina

1128
00:38:18,950 --> 00:38:17,200
there are other blips on your retina

1129
00:38:20,390 --> 00:38:18,960
that do not fit into this function and

1130
00:38:22,630 --> 00:38:20,400
these blips are noise

1131
00:38:24,310 --> 00:38:22,640
and there's a lot of noise on our retina

1132
00:38:25,990 --> 00:38:24,320
and in some sense this is also how we

1133
00:38:27,750 --> 00:38:26,000
interpret the universe everything where

1134
00:38:28,950 --> 00:38:27,760
we discover a relationship to the other

1135
00:38:30,950 --> 00:38:28,960
things

1136
00:38:32,310 --> 00:38:30,960
this is what we can model and the rest

1137
00:38:35,109 --> 00:38:32,320
is noise

1138
00:38:36,950 --> 00:38:35,119
and the amazing thing is that physics is

1139
00:38:39,190 --> 00:38:36,960
clarifying the universe to such a high

1140
00:38:40,550 --> 00:38:39,200
degree and there's so little noise left

1141
00:38:42,630 --> 00:38:40,560
do you think that ultimately there will

1142
00:38:44,069 --> 00:38:42,640
be no noise left that will be able to

1143
00:38:45,990 --> 00:38:44,079
characterize everything

1144
00:38:47,670 --> 00:38:46,000
i think that we will always be able to

1145
00:38:50,470 --> 00:38:47,680
construct a function that

1146
00:38:52,390 --> 00:38:50,480
uh behaves as if there was no noise that

1147
00:38:53,910 --> 00:38:52,400
basically explains everything

1148
00:38:55,349 --> 00:38:53,920
but it doesn't mean that this function

1149
00:38:57,270 --> 00:38:55,359
is necessarily predictive it doesn't

1150
00:38:59,589 --> 00:38:57,280
need to be the correct function

1151
00:39:00,790 --> 00:38:59,599
and it's not the only function that can

1152
00:39:03,589 --> 00:39:00,800
explain it it's like

1153
00:39:04,790 --> 00:39:03,599
imagine you live in a computer program

1154
00:39:06,550 --> 00:39:04,800
like minecraft

1155
00:39:08,069 --> 00:39:06,560
and uh you observe all the patterns

1156
00:39:09,670 --> 00:39:08,079
around you you can always construct a

1157
00:39:11,030 --> 00:39:09,680
computer program that will work like

1158
00:39:11,990 --> 00:39:11,040
minecraft and will explain all the

1159
00:39:14,950 --> 00:39:12,000
patterns around you

1160
00:39:16,630 --> 00:39:14,960
even the random patterns right you can

1161
00:39:18,550 --> 00:39:16,640
always come up with some pseudo-random

1162
00:39:20,710 --> 00:39:18,560
number generator that produces this

1163
00:39:23,109 --> 00:39:20,720
but uh you will not necessarily be able

1164
00:39:26,310 --> 00:39:23,119
to discover the truth of the matter

1165
00:39:27,349 --> 00:39:26,320
except um if the world that you live in

1166
00:39:29,270 --> 00:39:27,359
is so simple

1167
00:39:30,870 --> 00:39:29,280
that it suggests itself that there is

1168
00:39:32,550 --> 00:39:30,880
only one simple function

1169
00:39:35,430 --> 00:39:32,560
or a class of simple function that can

1170
00:39:37,750 --> 00:39:35,440
be mapped on to each other with a simple

1171
00:39:39,030 --> 00:39:37,760
transformation that gives the same

1172
00:39:41,030 --> 00:39:39,040
result every time

1173
00:39:42,630 --> 00:39:41,040
right so imagine that you discover yet

1174
00:39:43,910 --> 00:39:42,640
you live in a mandelbrot fractal

1175
00:39:45,670 --> 00:39:43,920
the mental board factor is like two

1176
00:39:47,190 --> 00:39:45,680
lines of code and

1177
00:39:48,870 --> 00:39:47,200
you can express these lines of code in

1178
00:39:50,870 --> 00:39:48,880
many many different ways so

1179
00:39:52,630 --> 00:39:50,880
many ways of expressing the same

1180
00:39:54,310 --> 00:39:52,640
function the same sequence

1181
00:39:56,230 --> 00:39:54,320
but there are mappings between all of

1182
00:39:57,670 --> 00:39:56,240
those and uh

1183
00:39:59,190 --> 00:39:57,680
so if you discover the mandelbrot

1184
00:40:00,950 --> 00:39:59,200
fractal you can basically say this is

1185
00:40:02,790 --> 00:40:00,960
the simplest function that explains it

1186
00:40:04,069 --> 00:40:02,800
this is the reality that you're looking

1187
00:40:07,990 --> 00:40:04,079
at this

1188
00:40:10,470 --> 00:40:08,000
a simple sequential definition of

1189
00:40:12,630 --> 00:40:10,480
how to calculate these pixels on that

1190
00:40:14,790 --> 00:40:12,640
plane and it's conceivable that we would

1191
00:40:16,790 --> 00:40:14,800
find such a function for our universe

1192
00:40:18,470 --> 00:40:16,800
but if the universe is very complicated

1193
00:40:19,750 --> 00:40:18,480
we can still find a very complicated

1194
00:40:21,270 --> 00:40:19,760
function in some sense

1195
00:40:23,190 --> 00:40:21,280
the quest of physics is to find the

1196
00:40:25,030 --> 00:40:23,200
shortest function and the current

1197
00:40:26,870 --> 00:40:25,040
function that we have that explains most

1198
00:40:28,790 --> 00:40:26,880
stuff not everything but most is the

1199
00:40:29,750 --> 00:40:28,800
standard model it's like half a page of

1200
00:40:32,470 --> 00:40:29,760
quote

1201
00:40:34,069 --> 00:40:32,480
and it's it's already very short but

1202
00:40:35,349 --> 00:40:34,079
physicists keep hoping for something

1203
00:40:36,630 --> 00:40:35,359
that is much shorter because

1204
00:40:38,470 --> 00:40:36,640
other page of code is still very

1205
00:40:39,030 --> 00:40:38,480
complicated and people ask themselves

1206
00:40:41,349 --> 00:40:39,040
that how

1207
00:40:43,030 --> 00:40:41,359
does all this complexity come from do

1208
00:40:45,349 --> 00:40:43,040
you think that ultimately the

1209
00:40:47,270 --> 00:40:45,359
code is short or do you think that like

1210
00:40:48,870 --> 00:40:47,280
feynman was quoted saying that it might

1211
00:40:50,790 --> 00:40:48,880
even be an onion where

1212
00:40:51,990 --> 00:40:50,800
you just keep unveiling the layers and

1213
00:40:53,990 --> 00:40:52,000
it's more and more complex

1214
00:40:55,510 --> 00:40:54,000
less and less complex and it doesn't

1215
00:40:56,790 --> 00:40:55,520
follow necessarily a pattern maybe

1216
00:40:57,910 --> 00:40:56,800
there's not even a center

1217
00:41:01,589 --> 00:40:57,920
do you believe there's a center and you

1218
00:41:03,750 --> 00:41:01,599
believe that center is simple

1219
00:41:05,510 --> 00:41:03,760
it's a weird metaphors it's mostly ways

1220
00:41:07,589 --> 00:41:05,520
that we think about the world that we

1221
00:41:09,349 --> 00:41:07,599
should deconstruct before we trust them

1222
00:41:11,030 --> 00:41:09,359
right what does it mean that for

1223
00:41:13,030 --> 00:41:11,040
something to be a center

1224
00:41:15,270 --> 00:41:13,040
it's inside of something and the onion

1225
00:41:17,270 --> 00:41:15,280
is outside and it's spatially aligned

1226
00:41:19,190 --> 00:41:17,280
so what this describes is probably a

1227
00:41:21,030 --> 00:41:19,200
hierarchy of models

1228
00:41:22,870 --> 00:41:21,040
and the question is does every

1229
00:41:24,630 --> 00:41:22,880
subsequent layer of modeling that we

1230
00:41:26,309 --> 00:41:24,640
discover becomes simpler and simpler

1231
00:41:28,950 --> 00:41:26,319
imagine you take a microscope

1232
00:41:29,430 --> 00:41:28,960
and you look at a cell and you zoom in

1233
00:41:32,150 --> 00:41:29,440
and

1234
00:41:33,750 --> 00:41:32,160
every at every level of resolution where

1235
00:41:35,030 --> 00:41:33,760
you discover a new structure

1236
00:41:36,790 --> 00:41:35,040
the question is does the structure

1237
00:41:38,470 --> 00:41:36,800
become more simple or more complex

1238
00:41:39,990 --> 00:41:38,480
right and does the model converge to

1239
00:41:43,750 --> 00:41:40,000
something ultimately

1240
00:41:45,670 --> 00:41:43,760
yeah and i think that

1241
00:41:47,430 --> 00:41:45,680
it's very likely that it does converge

1242
00:41:49,270 --> 00:41:47,440
to something from what i understand

1243
00:41:51,349 --> 00:41:49,280
but i cannot make such a proof at this

1244
00:41:53,030 --> 00:41:51,359
point i think that it uh

1245
00:41:54,550 --> 00:41:53,040
must converge to something because there

1246
00:41:55,349 --> 00:41:54,560
are no infinities things needs to be

1247
00:41:57,589 --> 00:41:55,359
constructed

1248
00:41:59,190 --> 00:41:57,599
there is also this weird properties that

1249
00:42:00,150 --> 00:41:59,200
for instance if you look at the particle

1250
00:42:02,870 --> 00:42:00,160
generations

1251
00:42:03,589 --> 00:42:02,880
they are integer fractions that describe

1252
00:42:06,390 --> 00:42:03,599
uh how they are

1253
00:42:07,670 --> 00:42:06,400
uh how they differ in their properties

1254
00:42:10,950 --> 00:42:07,680
right so uh

1255
00:42:13,030 --> 00:42:10,960
it could be that there are uh smallest

1256
00:42:14,950 --> 00:42:13,040
building blocks of information

1257
00:42:16,230 --> 00:42:14,960
that uh make up the particles that

1258
00:42:17,670 --> 00:42:16,240
you're looking at there is no infinite

1259
00:42:20,390 --> 00:42:17,680
division between them

1260
00:42:22,309 --> 00:42:20,400
and so it could be that the the course

1261
00:42:24,550 --> 00:42:22,319
of the closest lowest layer

1262
00:42:27,270 --> 00:42:24,560
is somewhere uh inside it's something

1263
00:42:28,710 --> 00:42:27,280
that we can still construct

1264
00:42:30,309 --> 00:42:28,720
is it cool if we get into the nitty

1265
00:42:31,349 --> 00:42:30,319
gritty i have some questions about your

1266
00:42:33,190 --> 00:42:31,359
powerpoint slides

1267
00:42:35,190 --> 00:42:33,200
yes just one uh one more thing i didn't

1268
00:42:37,190 --> 00:42:35,200
answer the question for uh for the

1269
00:42:38,550 --> 00:42:37,200
optimal algorithm to discover yes great

1270
00:42:42,150 --> 00:42:38,560
let's get back to that

1271
00:42:43,589 --> 00:42:42,160
sorry i went on to attention there but i

1272
00:42:46,470 --> 00:42:43,599
thought it was necessary

1273
00:42:48,390 --> 00:42:46,480
so uh in some sense when you look at

1274
00:42:50,790 --> 00:42:48,400
artificial intelligence systems

1275
00:42:52,309 --> 00:42:50,800
uh there was a succession of ideas and

1276
00:42:54,230 --> 00:42:52,319
in classical ai

1277
00:42:55,430 --> 00:42:54,240
uh people have been looking at problems

1278
00:42:57,270 --> 00:42:55,440
like playing chess

1279
00:42:59,750 --> 00:42:57,280
and constructing algorithms to solve

1280
00:43:01,589 --> 00:42:59,760
that problem mostly by hand

1281
00:43:03,510 --> 00:43:01,599
and when they looked at new problems

1282
00:43:05,589 --> 00:43:03,520
they had to construct a new algorithm

1283
00:43:07,750 --> 00:43:05,599
and then we had this idea of finding

1284
00:43:10,790 --> 00:43:07,760
more general algorithms that can

1285
00:43:12,550 --> 00:43:10,800
work over a very large class of problems

1286
00:43:13,670 --> 00:43:12,560
general problem solvers and there is

1287
00:43:15,109 --> 00:43:13,680
difficulty that

1288
00:43:16,710 --> 00:43:15,119
if you have a description that is so

1289
00:43:19,270 --> 00:43:16,720
general that it works on many

1290
00:43:19,910 --> 00:43:19,280
uh problems then the description is

1291
00:43:23,670 --> 00:43:19,920
typically

1292
00:43:24,710 --> 00:43:23,680
uh so general that uh it's too long for

1293
00:43:26,790 --> 00:43:24,720
a concrete problem

1294
00:43:28,550 --> 00:43:26,800
it basically takes too long to explore

1295
00:43:29,109 --> 00:43:28,560
the space using this general description

1296
00:43:30,710 --> 00:43:29,119
you get a

1297
00:43:32,550 --> 00:43:30,720
explosion of complexity there are too

1298
00:43:34,550 --> 00:43:32,560
many possibilities that you would have

1299
00:43:37,109 --> 00:43:34,560
to look into if you enumerate them all

1300
00:43:38,790 --> 00:43:37,119
with your general description so uh you

1301
00:43:40,870 --> 00:43:38,800
end up needing

1302
00:43:42,309 --> 00:43:40,880
a targeted exploration of the space of

1303
00:43:44,150 --> 00:43:42,319
possibilities

1304
00:43:46,230 --> 00:43:44,160
and this is what the current wave of ai

1305
00:43:48,390 --> 00:43:46,240
is doing it's looking for algorithms

1306
00:43:50,309 --> 00:43:48,400
that discover solutions for problems so

1307
00:43:51,030 --> 00:43:50,319
instead of implementing a solution for

1308
00:43:53,190 --> 00:43:51,040
chess

1309
00:43:55,190 --> 00:43:53,200
we give the system a specification for

1310
00:43:56,150 --> 00:43:55,200
chess and then we let it explore the

1311
00:43:59,349 --> 00:43:56,160
solution space

1312
00:44:00,550 --> 00:43:59,359
right it's discovering uh an algorithm

1313
00:44:02,150 --> 00:44:00,560
to play chess

1314
00:44:04,630 --> 00:44:02,160
using an algorithm that we give it so we

1315
00:44:07,270 --> 00:44:04,640
construct a learning algorithm

1316
00:44:08,230 --> 00:44:07,280
and the next stage could be that we just

1317
00:44:10,150 --> 00:44:08,240
describe

1318
00:44:11,589 --> 00:44:10,160
an algorithm that discovers a learning

1319
00:44:14,150 --> 00:44:11,599
algorithm for this

1320
00:44:15,430 --> 00:44:14,160
this is meta learning so we don't build

1321
00:44:17,349 --> 00:44:15,440
a system that learns

1322
00:44:19,190 --> 00:44:17,359
people decision that learns how to learn

1323
00:44:21,270 --> 00:44:19,200
a given thing

1324
00:44:23,750 --> 00:44:21,280
right and then a question is is this the

1325
00:44:26,950 --> 00:44:23,760
generally best solution already

1326
00:44:29,190 --> 00:44:26,960
or if not maybe we need to get one step

1327
00:44:31,270 --> 00:44:29,200
above and we need to discover a general

1328
00:44:33,190 --> 00:44:31,280
theory of search

1329
00:44:34,710 --> 00:44:33,200
a general mathematical theory says how

1330
00:44:36,710 --> 00:44:34,720
to optimally search given certain

1331
00:44:38,069 --> 00:44:36,720
boundary conditions

1332
00:44:39,430 --> 00:44:38,079
the way that i'm conceptualizing what

1333
00:44:40,950 --> 00:44:39,440
you said is in the first wave of

1334
00:44:42,790 --> 00:44:40,960
artificial intelligence it's almost like

1335
00:44:44,150 --> 00:44:42,800
if then statements extremely structured

1336
00:44:45,670 --> 00:44:44,160
here's how to play chess i'm going to

1337
00:44:47,670 --> 00:44:45,680
implement the rules myself then the

1338
00:44:49,750 --> 00:44:47,680
second wave is look at

1339
00:44:51,030 --> 00:44:49,760
a slew of chess and learn the rules and

1340
00:44:53,030 --> 00:44:51,040
learn how to play well

1341
00:44:54,309 --> 00:44:53,040
then you're saying that okay well that's

1342
00:44:55,990 --> 00:44:54,319
great it's like watson watson's

1343
00:44:57,270 --> 00:44:56,000
wonderful at one task

1344
00:44:59,190 --> 00:44:57,280
but then when you want to generalize

1345
00:45:00,790 --> 00:44:59,200
watson can you also move your arms okay

1346
00:45:03,190 --> 00:45:00,800
well that require and also be

1347
00:45:04,630 --> 00:45:03,200
regular watson that's a bit difficult

1348
00:45:07,589 --> 00:45:04,640
watson can you move your arms

1349
00:45:08,230 --> 00:45:07,599
and talk to people it requires too much

1350
00:45:09,670 --> 00:45:08,240
time

1351
00:45:11,430 --> 00:45:09,680
because your your function is too

1352
00:45:13,030 --> 00:45:11,440
general but yet our brains do it

1353
00:45:15,910 --> 00:45:13,040
are you saying something like that or am

1354
00:45:17,589 --> 00:45:15,920
i completely wrong almost almost

1355
00:45:19,270 --> 00:45:17,599
starting with watson it's a family of

1356
00:45:20,630 --> 00:45:19,280
things basically it's a brand that ibm

1357
00:45:22,870 --> 00:45:20,640
has been using to

1358
00:45:24,069 --> 00:45:22,880
label its ai efforts or part of its ai

1359
00:45:26,630 --> 00:45:24,079
efforts after

1360
00:45:28,230 --> 00:45:26,640
uh the jeopardy thing became famous so

1361
00:45:31,670 --> 00:45:28,240
it's watson is not one thing

1362
00:45:33,829 --> 00:45:31,680
it's many things and it's

1363
00:45:36,550 --> 00:45:33,839
slightly different from uh alphago

1364
00:45:39,670 --> 00:45:36,560
because alphago is an algorithm that is

1365
00:45:41,670 --> 00:45:39,680
specified in a particular paper and

1366
00:45:43,670 --> 00:45:41,680
deepmind is not renaming everything that

1367
00:45:44,790 --> 00:45:43,680
it does into alphago because alphago got

1368
00:45:47,270 --> 00:45:44,800
famous

1369
00:45:48,550 --> 00:45:47,280
right it's uh it has alpha zero and

1370
00:45:50,309 --> 00:45:48,560
there's a number of other things that

1371
00:45:52,390 --> 00:45:50,319
algorithms that are somewhat related

1372
00:45:53,670 --> 00:45:52,400
and uh eventually when you talk about

1373
00:45:55,349 --> 00:45:53,680
the algorithms you can also use the

1374
00:45:58,069 --> 00:45:55,359
technical name you could look at

1375
00:46:00,550 --> 00:45:58,079
for instance deep q learning and uh deep

1376
00:46:02,950 --> 00:46:00,560
q learning is a particular

1377
00:46:04,550 --> 00:46:02,960
small class of algorithms that can solve

1378
00:46:09,270 --> 00:46:04,560
certain problems very well and

1379
00:46:11,589 --> 00:46:09,280
others not very well at the moment the

1380
00:46:12,630 --> 00:46:11,599
most interesting class of algorithms a

1381
00:46:14,230 --> 00:46:12,640
lot of people are talking about

1382
00:46:16,470 --> 00:46:14,240
one of the most interesting ones is

1383
00:46:19,510 --> 00:46:16,480
transformers which

1384
00:46:21,430 --> 00:46:19,520
look for embeddings of

1385
00:46:23,109 --> 00:46:21,440
features based on similarities over many

1386
00:46:24,230 --> 00:46:23,119
layers using an attention-based

1387
00:46:27,109 --> 00:46:24,240
algorithm

1388
00:46:28,550 --> 00:46:27,119
and a fascinating thing is that the same

1389
00:46:30,150 --> 00:46:28,560
algorithm that discovers structure and

1390
00:46:31,109 --> 00:46:30,160
language also discovers structure and

1391
00:46:33,270 --> 00:46:31,119
images

1392
00:46:35,270 --> 00:46:33,280
and now the tempting question is is

1393
00:46:37,190 --> 00:46:35,280
there an optimal algorithm that can

1394
00:46:39,270 --> 00:46:37,200
discover structure everywhere

1395
00:46:41,349 --> 00:46:39,280
and that maybe is recursive in the sense

1396
00:46:43,030 --> 00:46:41,359
that it it's starting to explore what

1397
00:46:44,790 --> 00:46:43,040
kind of strategies of discovering

1398
00:46:47,030 --> 00:46:44,800
structure are the best ones

1399
00:46:48,150 --> 00:46:47,040
and then it settles for those is there a

1400
00:46:51,109 --> 00:46:48,160
universal

1401
00:46:53,030 --> 00:46:51,119
recipe and i don't think that there is a

1402
00:46:54,790 --> 00:46:53,040
hope in the sense to say this algorithm

1403
00:46:56,630 --> 00:46:54,800
doesn't exist and humans will always be

1404
00:46:59,430 --> 00:46:56,640
better because if humans are better

1405
00:47:00,150 --> 00:46:59,440
than the algorithms that we discover

1406
00:47:02,069 --> 00:47:00,160
even the most

1407
00:47:03,670 --> 00:47:02,079
general one it means that humans are

1408
00:47:04,550 --> 00:47:03,680
implementing a more general algorithm

1409
00:47:07,190 --> 00:47:04,560
than the more general

1410
00:47:09,030 --> 00:47:07,200
most general one and we can discover it

1411
00:47:10,150 --> 00:47:09,040
right there is no reason why humans can

1412
00:47:12,710 --> 00:47:10,160
do something

1413
00:47:13,349 --> 00:47:12,720
that an algorithm that we write down

1414
00:47:15,670 --> 00:47:13,359
somehow

1415
00:47:17,430 --> 00:47:15,680
cannot do we can also write down the

1416
00:47:19,190 --> 00:47:17,440
formula for evolution and we can

1417
00:47:21,030 --> 00:47:19,200
in the worst case evolve the algorithms

1418
00:47:22,549 --> 00:47:21,040
that we need to and then

1419
00:47:25,030 --> 00:47:22,559
everything that we do is in some sense

1420
00:47:25,510 --> 00:47:25,040
an optimization of brute force evolution

1421
00:47:28,390 --> 00:47:25,520
where

1422
00:47:28,950 --> 00:47:28,400
we do a blind search and we do try to

1423
00:47:31,190 --> 00:47:28,960
find

1424
00:47:32,150 --> 00:47:31,200
uh directions in which we can optimize

1425
00:47:33,670 --> 00:47:32,160
the search and

1426
00:47:35,510 --> 00:47:33,680
for me this question is there this

1427
00:47:37,109 --> 00:47:35,520
optimal algorithm to discover choose the

1428
00:47:39,190 --> 00:47:37,119
optimal learning algorithm

1429
00:47:40,710 --> 00:47:39,200
that would mean we can't stop doing

1430
00:47:42,630 --> 00:47:40,720
science because as scientists we can

1431
00:47:44,069 --> 00:47:42,640
only now execute on this algorithm and

1432
00:47:46,150 --> 00:47:44,079
of course we can leave this to a machine

1433
00:47:48,069 --> 00:47:46,160
now and we should go to a beach and surf

1434
00:47:49,670 --> 00:47:48,079
instead and there's a factor of time

1435
00:47:51,109 --> 00:47:49,680
because we could implement evolution and

1436
00:47:51,990 --> 00:47:51,119
let it run for a billion years and then

1437
00:47:53,190 --> 00:47:52,000
it would discover something

1438
00:47:54,390 --> 00:47:53,200
that's greater than us in terms of

1439
00:47:55,190 --> 00:47:54,400
generalization but we probably wouldn't

1440
00:47:57,829 --> 00:47:55,200
need to because

1441
00:47:58,549 --> 00:47:57,839
uh the evolution that we are looking at

1442
00:48:02,150 --> 00:47:58,559
uh

1443
00:48:03,829 --> 00:48:02,160
is only slow for multicellular organisms

1444
00:48:04,230 --> 00:48:03,839
because in multicellular organisms you

1445
00:48:06,069 --> 00:48:04,240
need to

1446
00:48:07,270 --> 00:48:06,079
bootstrap the entire organism before you

1447
00:48:09,750 --> 00:48:07,280
can evaluate it

1448
00:48:11,990 --> 00:48:09,760
which in our case takes very long for

1449
00:48:13,750 --> 00:48:12,000
for us it's also necessary to train this

1450
00:48:15,510 --> 00:48:13,760
the new instance of the algorithm for a

1451
00:48:16,150 --> 00:48:15,520
long time before it comes functional

1452
00:48:18,150 --> 00:48:16,160
again right

1453
00:48:21,109 --> 00:48:18,160
if you want to breed the optimal

1454
00:48:23,190 --> 00:48:21,119
scientist you cannot just uh

1455
00:48:25,190 --> 00:48:23,200
vary our genome and look at the outcome

1456
00:48:25,670 --> 00:48:25,200
you also need to expand the issue so you

1457
00:48:27,349 --> 00:48:25,680
need to

1458
00:48:29,109 --> 00:48:27,359
incubate for nine months and then you

1459
00:48:32,390 --> 00:48:29,119
need to raise this

1460
00:48:35,270 --> 00:48:32,400
until it's in its 20s or 30s or 40s and

1461
00:48:37,190 --> 00:48:35,280
then you get an evaluation and then you

1462
00:48:37,910 --> 00:48:37,200
can decide uh which ones of those you

1463
00:48:40,309 --> 00:48:37,920
shouldn't uh

1464
00:48:41,349 --> 00:48:40,319
put into the next generation right this

1465
00:48:43,829 --> 00:48:41,359
is something that

1466
00:48:45,670 --> 00:48:43,839
is uh a result of the way that

1467
00:48:47,510 --> 00:48:45,680
biological evolution works based on

1468
00:48:50,069 --> 00:48:47,520
cells

1469
00:48:51,990 --> 00:48:50,079
in on if you just evolve single-celled

1470
00:48:54,230 --> 00:48:52,000
organisms it goes very very fast

1471
00:48:55,589 --> 00:48:54,240
right in a few hours you can have quite

1472
00:48:57,670 --> 00:48:55,599
substantial changes

1473
00:48:59,349 --> 00:48:57,680
and the microorganisms that for instance

1474
00:49:02,309 --> 00:48:59,359
we breed in our gut

1475
00:49:04,470 --> 00:49:02,319
are often quite specific trained for

1476
00:49:08,790 --> 00:49:04,480
tasks basically our gut is breeding

1477
00:49:12,150 --> 00:49:08,800
organisms to for its purposes and

1478
00:49:14,069 --> 00:49:12,160
that is done in reactors our

1479
00:49:15,670 --> 00:49:14,079
guts are in some sense breeding reactors

1480
00:49:18,549 --> 00:49:15,680
for microorganisms

1481
00:49:19,349 --> 00:49:18,559
and it's also a substantial part of our

1482
00:49:21,910 --> 00:49:19,359
nervous system

1483
00:49:23,430 --> 00:49:21,920
is uh duty bound to deal with this

1484
00:49:25,750 --> 00:49:23,440
breeding task with farming these

1485
00:49:28,790 --> 00:49:25,760
microorganisms all these

1486
00:49:29,190 --> 00:49:28,800
gut neurons are mostly dealing with i

1487
00:49:31,190 --> 00:49:29,200
think

1488
00:49:33,670 --> 00:49:31,200
maintaining this extremely large farm

1489
00:49:35,910 --> 00:49:33,680
that has specific organisms in it

1490
00:49:37,270 --> 00:49:35,920
and this works because it's uh such a

1491
00:49:40,470 --> 00:49:37,280
quick thing to breed

1492
00:49:43,109 --> 00:49:40,480
single-celled organisms but

1493
00:49:44,150 --> 00:49:43,119
if we build ai's in this way we would

1494
00:49:47,030 --> 00:49:44,160
not have to

1495
00:49:47,990 --> 00:49:47,040
reinstate the entire phenotype based on

1496
00:49:50,950 --> 00:49:48,000
a genotype

1497
00:49:52,549 --> 00:49:50,960
over a long time and retrain it we can

1498
00:49:54,630 --> 00:49:52,559
probably just change the parts that we

1499
00:49:56,470 --> 00:49:54,640
need and leave everything else intact

1500
00:49:59,750 --> 00:49:56,480
so the evolutionary research that we

1501
00:50:01,750 --> 00:49:59,760
could do in our technical systems

1502
00:50:04,230 --> 00:50:01,760
can be many many orders of magnitude

1503
00:50:05,910 --> 00:50:04,240
faster it can also be much more directed

1504
00:50:07,030 --> 00:50:05,920
because often we know what we're looking

1505
00:50:09,510 --> 00:50:07,040
for

1506
00:50:10,630 --> 00:50:09,520
so we can define a fitness function that

1507
00:50:14,309 --> 00:50:10,640
is very

1508
00:50:15,750 --> 00:50:14,319
close to the solution or that is uh

1509
00:50:17,829 --> 00:50:15,760
narrowing the solution space

1510
00:50:20,790 --> 00:50:17,839
dramatically

1511
00:50:22,069 --> 00:50:20,800
i remember you said that artists are

1512
00:50:24,150 --> 00:50:22,079
tuned to their

1513
00:50:25,510 --> 00:50:24,160
loss function something like that that's

1514
00:50:27,589 --> 00:50:25,520
what they're obsessed with

1515
00:50:29,670 --> 00:50:27,599
now the way that i understand that is

1516
00:50:31,589 --> 00:50:29,680
what you're saying is

1517
00:50:33,030 --> 00:50:31,599
artists are interested in their behavior

1518
00:50:34,230 --> 00:50:33,040
and what incentives and rewards they

1519
00:50:35,670 --> 00:50:34,240
have which are their values and they're

1520
00:50:37,349 --> 00:50:35,680
trying to replicate that or represent

1521
00:50:39,670 --> 00:50:37,359
that in some level

1522
00:50:41,430 --> 00:50:39,680
is that correct or is that wrong close

1523
00:50:45,510 --> 00:50:41,440
so uh what i try to say

1524
00:50:49,270 --> 00:50:45,520
is um that art is in some sense

1525
00:50:49,829 --> 00:50:49,280
uh a dysfunction sorry a what function

1526
00:50:54,309 --> 00:50:49,839
art

1527
00:50:56,549 --> 00:50:54,319
a dysfunction dysfunction yes because

1528
00:50:58,069 --> 00:50:56,559
so there are basically different ways of

1529
00:51:01,349 --> 00:50:58,079
looking at art

1530
00:51:03,109 --> 00:51:01,359
a non-artist a normal person a healthy

1531
00:51:05,829 --> 00:51:03,119
person

1532
00:51:07,829 --> 00:51:05,839
sees art as a tool it's instrumental to

1533
00:51:10,549 --> 00:51:07,839
something it might be tool for education

1534
00:51:13,430 --> 00:51:10,559
for entertainment for signaling status

1535
00:51:14,790 --> 00:51:13,440
for ornamentation and an artist and i am

1536
00:51:16,710 --> 00:51:14,800
from an artist's family and totally

1537
00:51:18,309 --> 00:51:16,720
identify with this stuff is a person

1538
00:51:20,950 --> 00:51:18,319
that thinks that the purpose of art is

1539
00:51:22,870 --> 00:51:20,960
to capture conscious states

1540
00:51:24,790 --> 00:51:22,880
full stop this is this is the purpose of

1541
00:51:26,549 --> 00:51:24,800
art it's this observation

1542
00:51:28,069 --> 00:51:26,559
for the sake of observation because the

1543
00:51:29,589 --> 00:51:28,079
conscious state is the important thing

1544
00:51:32,790 --> 00:51:29,599
that needs to be conserved

1545
00:51:36,069 --> 00:51:32,800
an artist is somebody who eats to do art

1546
00:51:39,349 --> 00:51:36,079
and uh a craftsman is somebody

1547
00:51:42,390 --> 00:51:39,359
who might produce artifacts uh but

1548
00:51:44,230 --> 00:51:42,400
uh they do art to eat right it's

1549
00:51:46,309 --> 00:51:44,240
it's very different way of looking at

1550
00:51:48,230 --> 00:51:46,319
things for them the art is instrumental

1551
00:51:50,230 --> 00:51:48,240
to to doing something the art is an

1552
00:51:53,190 --> 00:51:50,240
artifact and for

1553
00:51:55,589 --> 00:51:53,200
the artist it's a service it's a service

1554
00:51:58,230 --> 00:51:55,599
to something that is more important

1555
00:51:59,030 --> 00:51:58,240
than all the other things that you could

1556
00:52:02,230 --> 00:51:59,040
be

1557
00:52:05,349 --> 00:52:02,240
doing in this at the same time and so

1558
00:52:07,190 --> 00:52:05,359
if you see the artist as in with the

1559
00:52:08,150 --> 00:52:07,200
metaphors of artificial intelligence you

1560
00:52:10,549 --> 00:52:08,160
could say that

1561
00:52:11,430 --> 00:52:10,559
the mind of an artist is a system that

1562
00:52:13,349 --> 00:52:11,440
has fallen

1563
00:52:15,349 --> 00:52:13,359
in love with the shape of the loss

1564
00:52:16,710 --> 00:52:15,359
function it's no longer optimizing the

1565
00:52:18,630 --> 00:52:16,720
loss function itself

1566
00:52:20,710 --> 00:52:18,640
it's trying to figure out what it looks

1567
00:52:22,790 --> 00:52:20,720
like it's trying to capture

1568
00:52:24,230 --> 00:52:22,800
a certain structure for its own sake no

1569
00:52:26,549 --> 00:52:24,240
longer for the reward

1570
00:52:27,990 --> 00:52:26,559
that is going to increase as a result of

1571
00:52:31,349 --> 00:52:28,000
applying what you've learned

1572
00:52:34,230 --> 00:52:31,359
do you see yourself as doing that

1573
00:52:36,230 --> 00:52:34,240
yeah it's that's i think it's a

1574
00:52:38,630 --> 00:52:36,240
deformation and i can retrace it

1575
00:52:40,309 --> 00:52:38,640
uh in a way it's an identification that

1576
00:52:41,750 --> 00:52:40,319
happens at a certain level

1577
00:52:44,950 --> 00:52:41,760
for for instance my mind is a very

1578
00:52:46,630 --> 00:52:44,960
conceptual mind i perceive myself as

1579
00:52:48,390 --> 00:52:46,640
something that thinks that solves

1580
00:52:50,950 --> 00:52:48,400
problems that reflects

1581
00:52:51,430 --> 00:52:50,960
and i perceive as my emotions and my

1582
00:52:53,190 --> 00:52:51,440
body

1583
00:52:55,030 --> 00:52:53,200
as being outside of that for the most

1584
00:52:57,829 --> 00:52:55,040
part right emotions come into

1585
00:52:59,670 --> 00:52:57,839
me and they disturb me and i need to

1586
00:53:01,910 --> 00:52:59,680
deal with them and i need to make sure

1587
00:53:03,829 --> 00:53:01,920
that they don't distract me or that they

1588
00:53:07,670 --> 00:53:03,839
don't overwhelm me or

1589
00:53:09,270 --> 00:53:07,680
they don't kill me but i don't identify

1590
00:53:10,870 --> 00:53:09,280
for the most part as this emotional

1591
00:53:13,190 --> 00:53:10,880
being of course sometimes i go

1592
00:53:13,990 --> 00:53:13,200
over in that state and i realize that

1593
00:53:16,630 --> 00:53:14,000
state

1594
00:53:17,270 --> 00:53:16,640
in which you are this emotional being

1595
00:53:29,349 --> 00:53:17,280
that

1596
00:53:30,150 --> 00:53:29,359
and a lot of scientists uh and

1597
00:53:33,349 --> 00:53:30,160
philosophers

1598
00:53:35,910 --> 00:53:33,359
are uh identified in a similar way

1599
00:53:37,510 --> 00:53:35,920
as me in a way it's the i think that a

1600
00:53:42,390 --> 00:53:37,520
scientist or an artist

1601
00:53:45,430 --> 00:53:42,400
or a philosopher is born when a child

1602
00:53:47,670 --> 00:53:45,440
discovers that it trusts its ideas more

1603
00:53:49,349 --> 00:53:47,680
than its feelings

1604
00:53:50,870 --> 00:53:49,359
and it happens often because you are

1605
00:53:52,710 --> 00:53:50,880
wired in a slightly different way than

1606
00:53:54,230 --> 00:53:52,720
other kids around you and as a result

1607
00:53:55,349 --> 00:53:54,240
your social interactions fail and you

1608
00:53:57,349 --> 00:53:55,359
can explain that

1609
00:53:59,190 --> 00:53:57,359
so you act like every other child based

1610
00:54:03,109 --> 00:53:59,200
on your intuitions

1611
00:54:04,230 --> 00:54:03,119
on on the 99 of what your mind is doing

1612
00:54:05,510 --> 00:54:04,240
and this training

1613
00:54:06,870 --> 00:54:05,520
and these intuitions are wrong what do

1614
00:54:08,470 --> 00:54:06,880
you mean when you say that your ideas

1615
00:54:10,950 --> 00:54:08,480
are different than your feelings because

1616
00:54:12,309 --> 00:54:10,960
obviously your ideas are some what

1617
00:54:13,109 --> 00:54:12,319
influenced by your feelings and your

1618
00:54:15,990 --> 00:54:13,119
perceptions

1619
00:54:18,309 --> 00:54:16,000
yes how do you disentangle them my ideas

1620
00:54:21,510 --> 00:54:18,319
are stories that i construct

1621
00:54:23,510 --> 00:54:21,520
they i have agency over my ideas my

1622
00:54:25,510 --> 00:54:23,520
i don't have agency over my feelings

1623
00:54:28,630 --> 00:54:25,520
before i'm in dart

1624
00:54:30,390 --> 00:54:28,640
when i'm a child my feelings are the

1625
00:54:33,670 --> 00:54:30,400
result of the interaction

1626
00:54:35,349 --> 00:54:33,680
between the model

1627
00:54:36,789 --> 00:54:35,359
that the mind maintains of the universe

1628
00:54:39,270 --> 00:54:36,799
and the model that it maintains of the

1629
00:54:42,549 --> 00:54:39,280
self according to the needs

1630
00:54:44,390 --> 00:54:42,559
of that self right so when

1631
00:54:46,069 --> 00:54:44,400
things happen in the universe the mind

1632
00:54:47,349 --> 00:54:46,079
evaluates them as good or bad which

1633
00:54:48,390 --> 00:54:47,359
means they're frustrate needs or they

1634
00:54:51,109 --> 00:54:48,400
satisfy needs

1635
00:54:52,789 --> 00:54:51,119
and as a result the self represents uh

1636
00:54:56,150 --> 00:54:52,799
joy or suffering

1637
00:54:57,990 --> 00:54:56,160
and when the mind is con

1638
00:54:59,750 --> 00:54:58,000
it doesn't have the correct intrinsic

1639
00:55:00,230 --> 00:54:59,760
model an innate model that you're born

1640
00:55:02,870 --> 00:55:00,240
with

1641
00:55:05,589 --> 00:55:02,880
then your needs are going to be

1642
00:55:09,270 --> 00:55:05,599
constantly frustrated

1643
00:55:12,470 --> 00:55:09,280
uh for instance i grew up in a forest

1644
00:55:14,230 --> 00:55:12,480
far remote from other villages and

1645
00:55:15,829 --> 00:55:14,240
when i got into first grade and met

1646
00:55:16,549 --> 00:55:15,839
other kids pretty much for the first

1647
00:55:18,870 --> 00:55:16,559
time

1648
00:55:20,390 --> 00:55:18,880
i had difficulty relating to them they

1649
00:55:22,470 --> 00:55:20,400
were not interested in the same things

1650
00:55:24,950 --> 00:55:22,480
as i was i was a nerd i was reading a

1651
00:55:28,069 --> 00:55:24,960
lot i was interested in

1652
00:55:31,750 --> 00:55:28,079
math and physics and science fiction

1653
00:55:34,230 --> 00:55:31,760
and history and stories and so on and

1654
00:55:35,990 --> 00:55:34,240
other kids were interested in soccer and

1655
00:55:37,190 --> 00:55:36,000
i couldn't get myself to be interested

1656
00:55:39,349 --> 00:55:37,200
in soccer and

1657
00:55:40,309 --> 00:55:39,359
as a result i was excluded from many of

1658
00:55:41,910 --> 00:55:40,319
the games

1659
00:55:43,589 --> 00:55:41,920
and later the same thing happened with

1660
00:55:44,390 --> 00:55:43,599
respect to politics it was eastern

1661
00:55:46,710 --> 00:55:44,400
germany

1662
00:55:48,950 --> 00:55:46,720
you were expected to pretend that you

1663
00:55:52,390 --> 00:55:48,960
conform with the prevailing ideas

1664
00:55:54,470 --> 00:55:52,400
and if you didn't you were punished and

1665
00:55:55,990 --> 00:55:54,480
even if these ideas were illogical and

1666
00:55:58,309 --> 00:55:56,000
at the same time your teachers told you

1667
00:55:59,990 --> 00:55:58,319
to be critical and don't take in all the

1668
00:56:01,589 --> 00:56:00,000
ideas from your environment without

1669
00:56:03,430 --> 00:56:01,599
criticism because you know

1670
00:56:05,349 --> 00:56:03,440
this is how fascism happened in germany

1671
00:56:07,270 --> 00:56:05,359
people took in bad ideas from the

1672
00:56:10,470 --> 00:56:07,280
environment without criticizing them

1673
00:56:11,270 --> 00:56:10,480
they did not develop moral agency so i

1674
00:56:12,950 --> 00:56:11,280
thought

1675
00:56:14,470 --> 00:56:12,960
the thing that i'm doing that i question

1676
00:56:15,910 --> 00:56:14,480
everything that i want to know why

1677
00:56:16,870 --> 00:56:15,920
something is the way it is and you need

1678
00:56:19,750 --> 00:56:16,880
to explain it to me

1679
00:56:20,630 --> 00:56:19,760
before i believe you um that would be a

1680
00:56:23,910 --> 00:56:20,640
virtuous thing

1681
00:56:24,309 --> 00:56:23,920
and so it was an apparent hypocrisy that

1682
00:56:27,349 --> 00:56:24,319
my

1683
00:56:28,630 --> 00:56:27,359
teachers told me one thing and uh i

1684
00:56:30,390 --> 00:56:28,640
behaved according to that and they

1685
00:56:32,390 --> 00:56:30,400
punished me if i did this

1686
00:56:33,829 --> 00:56:32,400
right it was difficult for me as a child

1687
00:56:36,470 --> 00:56:33,839
to make sense of that

1688
00:56:37,430 --> 00:56:36,480
and as a result i basically decided at

1689
00:56:38,870 --> 00:56:37,440
some level

1690
00:56:40,870 --> 00:56:38,880
and it was not something that was deeply

1691
00:56:43,430 --> 00:56:40,880
reflected but it was inevitable

1692
00:56:43,990 --> 00:56:43,440
to distrust my emotions i had to because

1693
00:56:45,270 --> 00:56:44,000
they were wrong

1694
00:56:47,589 --> 00:56:45,280
they were not pointing me in the right

1695
00:56:48,710 --> 00:56:47,599
direction i had to form theories on how

1696
00:56:50,309 --> 00:56:48,720
things work

1697
00:56:51,829 --> 00:56:50,319
and i think in a healthy mind this

1698
00:56:53,750 --> 00:56:51,839
development is temporary you

1699
00:56:55,670 --> 00:56:53,760
are a being that is directed by its

1700
00:56:56,710 --> 00:56:55,680
intuitions and these intuitions are

1701
00:56:58,789 --> 00:56:56,720
something that is uh

1702
00:57:00,950 --> 00:56:58,799
trained it's not something that is

1703
00:57:02,309 --> 00:57:00,960
random or superstitious

1704
00:57:03,670 --> 00:57:02,319
it's your intuition that tells you

1705
00:57:04,710 --> 00:57:03,680
whether this is going to be a good

1706
00:57:06,390 --> 00:57:04,720
relationship or not

1707
00:57:08,390 --> 00:57:06,400
but there should marry that person or

1708
00:57:09,430 --> 00:57:08,400
not but this person should be your

1709
00:57:11,270 --> 00:57:09,440
friend or not but

1710
00:57:13,270 --> 00:57:11,280
you should take this job or another

1711
00:57:14,630 --> 00:57:13,280
because if you try to make proofs about

1712
00:57:16,390 --> 00:57:14,640
this you're not going to get anywhere

1713
00:57:18,470 --> 00:57:16,400
it's way too complicated you're thinking

1714
00:57:21,030 --> 00:57:18,480
your ideas are way too brittle

1715
00:57:21,589 --> 00:57:21,040
and science is in some sense the part of

1716
00:57:26,309 --> 00:57:21,599
our

1717
00:57:28,150 --> 00:57:26,319
darkest and murkiest emotions

1718
00:57:29,990 --> 00:57:28,160
with those where we don't have solid

1719
00:57:32,710 --> 00:57:30,000
intuitions

1720
00:57:34,150 --> 00:57:32,720
right so it's science has marginal value

1721
00:57:37,349 --> 00:57:34,160
only for the individual

1722
00:57:39,829 --> 00:57:37,359
largely you need good intuitions it has

1723
00:57:41,430 --> 00:57:39,839
also only marginal value for society not

1724
00:57:43,349 --> 00:57:41,440
every ought to be a scientist

1725
00:57:45,109 --> 00:57:43,359
society wouldn't work like that because

1726
00:57:46,950 --> 00:57:45,119
science is too brittle the ideas that

1727
00:57:48,390 --> 00:57:46,960
scientists come up with don't tell you

1728
00:57:49,990 --> 00:57:48,400
what kind of relationship you should

1729
00:57:53,750 --> 00:57:50,000
enter and if you

1730
00:57:55,349 --> 00:57:53,760
overvalue science then your society is

1731
00:57:56,549 --> 00:57:55,359
going to go astray you need to have

1732
00:57:58,390 --> 00:57:56,559
solid common sense

1733
00:58:00,230 --> 00:57:58,400
you need to have good intuitions good

1734
00:58:01,829 --> 00:58:00,240
understanding of how things work

1735
00:58:03,670 --> 00:58:01,839
and only in those areas where these

1736
00:58:04,470 --> 00:58:03,680
intuitions break down where you need to

1737
00:58:06,150 --> 00:58:04,480
make proofs

1738
00:58:08,150 --> 00:58:06,160
this is where science really helps and

1739
00:58:08,710 --> 00:58:08,160
shines you mentioned that your intuition

1740
00:58:11,109 --> 00:58:08,720
is trained

1741
00:58:12,069 --> 00:58:11,119
trained by who and what your life is by

1742
00:58:13,430 --> 00:58:12,079
your experiences

1743
00:58:15,190 --> 00:58:13,440
so you're starting out yourself are

1744
00:58:18,710 --> 00:58:15,200
trained by society or both

1745
00:58:22,789 --> 00:58:18,720
no i think that society is is

1746
00:58:25,190 --> 00:58:22,799
often seen as too big of an influence or

1747
00:58:26,789 --> 00:58:25,200
i think that society is a small part of

1748
00:58:28,150 --> 00:58:26,799
the physical universe

1749
00:58:30,710 --> 00:58:28,160
and the thing that for instance trains

1750
00:58:32,549 --> 00:58:30,720
your intuition of how large an object is

1751
00:58:33,990 --> 00:58:32,559
when it has a certain distance from you

1752
00:58:36,150 --> 00:58:34,000
and you see it so so large on your

1753
00:58:38,470 --> 00:58:36,160
retina that's not given by society

1754
00:58:39,670 --> 00:58:38,480
right that's given in some sense by some

1755
00:58:41,910 --> 00:58:39,680
innate intuitions

1756
00:58:44,470 --> 00:58:41,920
but eventually it's given by learning

1757
00:58:46,150 --> 00:58:44,480
and you learn it by being embedded into

1758
00:58:46,470 --> 00:58:46,160
the universe when you have an intuition

1759
00:58:48,230 --> 00:58:46,480
of

1760
00:58:49,589 --> 00:58:48,240
how many steps you should take to catch

1761
00:58:51,750 --> 00:58:49,599
a ball that is flying

1762
00:58:53,109 --> 00:58:51,760
to you it's not society that teaches you

1763
00:58:54,630 --> 00:58:53,119
that it's

1764
00:58:56,789 --> 00:58:54,640
your interaction with the environment

1765
00:58:58,870 --> 00:58:56,799
that teaches you that and

1766
00:58:59,829 --> 00:58:58,880
so uh the same thing is also true for

1767
00:59:03,670 --> 00:58:59,839
social interaction

1768
00:59:06,470 --> 00:59:03,680
not taught by society

1769
00:59:07,829 --> 00:59:06,480
it's your immersive uh you're being

1770
00:59:10,470 --> 00:59:07,839
immersed in the environment

1771
00:59:11,670 --> 00:59:10,480
that teaches you what to do and it does

1772
00:59:13,670 --> 00:59:11,680
so based on

1773
00:59:15,030 --> 00:59:13,680
mostly innate impulses that make you

1774
00:59:16,069 --> 00:59:15,040
interested for instance in the mental

1775
00:59:17,510 --> 00:59:16,079
states of others

1776
00:59:19,670 --> 00:59:17,520
and what they think about you and how

1777
00:59:21,990 --> 00:59:19,680
they react to you and in some sense

1778
00:59:24,789 --> 00:59:22,000
society is the result of those things

1779
00:59:26,630 --> 00:59:24,799
it's not the cause of those things

1780
00:59:28,150 --> 00:59:26,640
i recall you saying that in a repressive

1781
00:59:29,030 --> 00:59:28,160
environment like let's say eastern

1782
00:59:31,990 --> 00:59:29,040
germany

1783
00:59:33,510 --> 00:59:32,000
that artists flourish in a sense because

1784
00:59:34,150 --> 00:59:33,520
they have to constantly define

1785
00:59:36,549 --> 00:59:34,160
themselves

1786
00:59:37,190 --> 00:59:36,559
i don't see that as necessarily salutary

1787
00:59:39,030 --> 00:59:37,200
because

1788
00:59:40,710 --> 00:59:39,040
you then have to define yourself with

1789
00:59:41,190 --> 00:59:40,720
regard to the society so it's almost

1790
00:59:43,030 --> 00:59:41,200
like

1791
00:59:45,190 --> 00:59:43,040
you're a contrarian but then without

1792
00:59:46,950 --> 00:59:45,200
society you don't have an identity

1793
00:59:49,109 --> 00:59:46,960
you know when for example when someone

1794
00:59:51,109 --> 00:59:49,119
says i am

1795
00:59:52,549 --> 00:59:51,119
i'm counter culture okay but that means

1796
00:59:53,430 --> 00:59:52,559
you're defining yourself in terms of the

1797
00:59:57,190 --> 00:59:53,440
culture

1798
01:00:00,870 --> 00:59:57,200
not within yourself in other words

1799
01:00:02,630 --> 01:00:00,880
why is it positive for an artist to grow

1800
01:00:05,750 --> 01:00:02,640
up in an environment that

1801
01:00:08,390 --> 01:00:05,760
is intolerant or inflexible it's uh

1802
01:00:11,750 --> 01:00:08,400
often there's a motivating force between

1803
01:00:14,069 --> 01:00:11,760
the art and the artist and so

1804
01:00:14,950 --> 01:00:14,079
there is a topic that is motivating the

1805
01:00:17,910 --> 01:00:14,960
artist

1806
01:00:20,150 --> 01:00:17,920
uh to talk about and it can be many

1807
01:00:22,470 --> 01:00:20,160
topics that artists are on about

1808
01:00:23,910 --> 01:00:22,480
in a simple case the topics that the

1809
01:00:27,349 --> 01:00:23,920
artist is

1810
01:00:29,589 --> 01:00:27,359
obsessed with is the imagery

1811
01:00:30,870 --> 01:00:29,599
that is possessed in the artist it's it

1812
01:00:34,230 --> 01:00:30,880
could be just the

1813
01:00:37,190 --> 01:00:34,240
uh overwhelming force of

1814
01:00:37,990 --> 01:00:37,200
uh for instance musical patterns or of

1815
01:00:39,510 --> 01:00:38,000
uh

1816
01:00:42,390 --> 01:00:39,520
visual patterns just the aesthetics

1817
01:00:45,349 --> 01:00:42,400
itself that wants to have an expression

1818
01:00:46,710 --> 01:00:45,359
in that case the society is irrelevant

1819
01:00:48,309 --> 01:00:46,720
it could also be that

1820
01:00:49,829 --> 01:00:48,319
what's important to the artist is the

1821
01:00:51,750 --> 01:00:49,839
discourse with other artists

1822
01:00:53,910 --> 01:00:51,760
where there's a history of art and there

1823
01:00:57,190 --> 01:00:53,920
are certain movements in art and artists

1824
01:00:58,710 --> 01:00:57,200
are engaging with this movement and

1825
01:01:01,270 --> 01:00:58,720
of course these are the artists that by

1826
01:01:03,670 --> 01:01:01,280
definition are the most influential ones

1827
01:01:05,190 --> 01:01:03,680
but not all artists care about being

1828
01:01:06,710 --> 01:01:05,200
influential

1829
01:01:08,309 --> 01:01:06,720
there are many artists which only care

1830
01:01:09,030 --> 01:01:08,319
about their own inner imagery and this

1831
01:01:11,750 --> 01:01:09,040
imagery

1832
01:01:13,750 --> 01:01:11,760
has only an incidental relationship to

1833
01:01:15,750 --> 01:01:13,760
what happens around them

1834
01:01:17,829 --> 01:01:15,760
and there is also a lot of art that is

1835
01:01:18,950 --> 01:01:17,839
uh directed on the political or the

1836
01:01:22,069 --> 01:01:18,960
social and so on

1837
01:01:24,069 --> 01:01:22,079
it's not necessarily activism but it's

1838
01:01:26,230 --> 01:01:24,079
the relationship that the self

1839
01:01:27,670 --> 01:01:26,240
experiences in the contrast or in the

1840
01:01:29,109 --> 01:01:27,680
conflict with the environment

1841
01:01:31,670 --> 01:01:29,119
which itself gives rise to the

1842
01:01:34,549 --> 01:01:31,680
observation to the object of the art

1843
01:01:38,950 --> 01:01:34,559
and uh if you uh live in a society like

1844
01:01:41,270 --> 01:01:38,960
eastern germany it's a very interesting

1845
01:01:43,270 --> 01:01:41,280
point in history because eastern germany

1846
01:01:45,589 --> 01:01:43,280
had a weird economy

1847
01:01:47,349 --> 01:01:45,599
we guaranteed everybody a job we

1848
01:01:50,230 --> 01:01:47,359
guaranteed everybody

1849
01:01:51,270 --> 01:01:50,240
health insurance and a pension and a

1850
01:01:54,549 --> 01:01:51,280
home

1851
01:01:56,630 --> 01:01:54,559
and it sounds great yes and

1852
01:01:58,230 --> 01:01:56,640
uh i think it objectively was great in

1853
01:02:00,950 --> 01:01:58,240
some sense uh

1854
01:02:02,789 --> 01:02:00,960
the productivity was very low uh because

1855
01:02:05,910 --> 01:02:02,799
uh people were not incentivized

1856
01:02:06,390 --> 01:02:05,920
to work very hard because as a result of

1857
01:02:08,150 --> 01:02:06,400
working

1858
01:02:09,990 --> 01:02:08,160
very hard you didn't get better foot or

1859
01:02:10,630 --> 01:02:10,000
a better home or something like that

1860
01:02:13,029 --> 01:02:10,640
right so

1861
01:02:14,630 --> 01:02:13,039
people uh had maintained roughly the

1862
01:02:18,230 --> 01:02:14,640
same productivity as they did

1863
01:02:20,230 --> 01:02:18,240
as they did in the 1950s and it was not

1864
01:02:21,750 --> 01:02:20,240
the fault of the individual necessarily

1865
01:02:23,029 --> 01:02:21,760
it was the fault of how the entire

1866
01:02:25,990 --> 01:02:23,039
system was set up

1867
01:02:27,109 --> 01:02:26,000
so for instance uh the uh factories in

1868
01:02:30,390 --> 01:02:27,119
eastern germany

1869
01:02:32,309 --> 01:02:30,400
were commonly owned or nationally owned

1870
01:02:33,829 --> 01:02:32,319
this means nobody had skin in the game

1871
01:02:34,950 --> 01:02:33,839
there was no single individual that

1872
01:02:37,270 --> 01:02:34,960
stood to profit

1873
01:02:39,109 --> 01:02:37,280
if the factory was more productive and

1874
01:02:42,230 --> 01:02:39,119
if an individual was more productive

1875
01:02:44,230 --> 01:02:42,240
in a largely unproductive factory

1876
01:02:46,150 --> 01:02:44,240
it didn't have a big result on the

1877
01:02:48,549 --> 01:02:46,160
global outcome of society

1878
01:02:49,990 --> 01:02:48,559
it would only uh have a massive result

1879
01:02:50,549 --> 01:02:50,000
on the well-being of that individual

1880
01:02:52,470 --> 01:02:50,559
because

1881
01:02:54,069 --> 01:02:52,480
it was working very hard without uh

1882
01:02:56,230 --> 01:02:54,079
having a good result while everybody

1883
01:02:58,470 --> 01:02:56,240
else around them was slacking off

1884
01:03:00,069 --> 01:02:58,480
right so uh that was one of the big

1885
01:03:02,150 --> 01:03:00,079
issues and i think that ultimately it

1886
01:03:04,630 --> 01:03:02,160
was the economy that killed the east

1887
01:03:06,470 --> 01:03:04,640
the ability the inability to set

1888
01:03:09,670 --> 01:03:06,480
incentives for innovation

1889
01:03:11,349 --> 01:03:09,680
and uh this thing that you

1890
01:03:12,630 --> 01:03:11,359
have need to have a factory where

1891
01:03:14,549 --> 01:03:12,640
somebody has skin in the game so

1892
01:03:17,190 --> 01:03:14,559
somebody owns the factory and

1893
01:03:17,990 --> 01:03:17,200
profits directly from the results of the

1894
01:03:20,150 --> 01:03:18,000
factory

1895
01:03:21,750 --> 01:03:20,160
leads to a large inequality and as a

1896
01:03:23,510 --> 01:03:21,760
result to injustice

1897
01:03:25,670 --> 01:03:23,520
but we had the control group western

1898
01:03:27,990 --> 01:03:25,680
germany had this amazing injustice where

1899
01:03:29,270 --> 01:03:28,000
you have billionaires that own factories

1900
01:03:31,029 --> 01:03:29,280
and you have lots and lots of people

1901
01:03:33,270 --> 01:03:31,039
that work for the billionaires

1902
01:03:35,109 --> 01:03:33,280
and uh own a fraction of what they do

1903
01:03:38,470 --> 01:03:35,119
and have a life that is

1904
01:03:40,470 --> 01:03:38,480
arguably perhaps a fraction is good but

1905
01:03:42,230 --> 01:03:40,480
the point is the life of these workers

1906
01:03:43,829 --> 01:03:42,240
in the factories in the west was way

1907
01:03:45,510 --> 01:03:43,839
better than the life of the workers and

1908
01:03:47,510 --> 01:03:45,520
the factories in the east

1909
01:03:49,349 --> 01:03:47,520
because uh the productivity was so much

1910
01:03:51,109 --> 01:03:49,359
higher there were better consumer goods

1911
01:03:52,470 --> 01:03:51,119
and there was a better protection of the

1912
01:03:53,829 --> 01:03:52,480
environment as a result of the better

1913
01:03:56,549 --> 01:03:53,839
productivity

1914
01:03:56,950 --> 01:03:56,559
and uh there were more civil rights you

1915
01:04:00,230 --> 01:03:56,960
could

1916
01:04:01,829 --> 01:04:00,240
take uh holidays at grander beaches you

1917
01:04:03,670 --> 01:04:01,839
could travel the world and so on and so

1918
01:04:05,910 --> 01:04:03,680
on why does increased productivity go

1919
01:04:07,670 --> 01:04:05,920
hand in hand with civil rights

1920
01:04:10,390 --> 01:04:07,680
uh because there is more to go around

1921
01:04:13,670 --> 01:04:10,400
you can uh you have more room to

1922
01:04:15,990 --> 01:04:13,680
ask for things if you are better off

1923
01:04:17,910 --> 01:04:16,000
if once you are better off it's much

1924
01:04:20,069 --> 01:04:17,920
harder to oppress you because you

1925
01:04:21,029 --> 01:04:20,079
have alternatives to what is being given

1926
01:04:22,789 --> 01:04:21,039
to you

1927
01:04:24,630 --> 01:04:22,799
and in some sense once you have a

1928
01:04:27,029 --> 01:04:24,640
society where the individual is not

1929
01:04:29,430 --> 01:04:27,039
terrorized into compliance

1930
01:04:30,910 --> 01:04:29,440
then this individual will try to take as

1931
01:04:32,230 --> 01:04:30,920
much freedom as they can get for

1932
01:04:34,950 --> 01:04:32,240
self-actualization

1933
01:04:35,750 --> 01:04:34,960
and so western germany gave in some

1934
01:04:38,870 --> 01:04:35,760
sense more

1935
01:04:41,829 --> 01:04:38,880
a room for self-actualization to

1936
01:04:42,390 --> 01:04:41,839
the working class but uh at the same

1937
01:04:45,430 --> 01:04:42,400
time

1938
01:04:45,910 --> 01:04:45,440
if you were not interested into having

1939
01:04:47,829 --> 01:04:45,920
goods

1940
01:04:49,349 --> 01:04:47,839
if you were not interested in having a

1941
01:04:51,829 --> 01:04:49,359
big expensive car

1942
01:04:53,589 --> 01:04:51,839
if you're not interested in making uh

1943
01:04:56,470 --> 01:04:53,599
traveling the world and so on

1944
01:04:58,390 --> 01:04:56,480
then eastern germany gave more room of

1945
01:05:00,470 --> 01:04:58,400
for self-actualization to artists

1946
01:05:02,549 --> 01:05:00,480
because at a certain baseline you didn't

1947
01:05:02,870 --> 01:05:02,559
have to worry about existential issues

1948
01:05:12,150 --> 01:05:02,880
you

1949
01:05:14,150 --> 01:05:12,160
so the hardest part just so

1950
01:05:15,750 --> 01:05:14,160
i can recapitulate the hardest part for

1951
01:05:16,710 --> 01:05:15,760
an artist is to make a living because

1952
01:05:18,549 --> 01:05:16,720
what you're doing

1953
01:05:19,589 --> 01:05:18,559
is you're making the art not to eat

1954
01:05:20,870 --> 01:05:19,599
you're eating for the art like you

1955
01:05:22,549 --> 01:05:20,880
mentioned before yes you want to have

1956
01:05:23,910 --> 01:05:22,559
space so you can do

1957
01:05:26,230 --> 01:05:23,920
yeah you want to have space for the

1958
01:05:26,950 --> 01:05:26,240
non-economical thing the the economical

1959
01:05:28,630 --> 01:05:26,960
thing is

1960
01:05:30,470 --> 01:05:28,640
the thing that the artist doesn't like

1961
01:05:32,230 --> 01:05:30,480
the ins to making art instrumental for

1962
01:05:33,670 --> 01:05:32,240
something that you can sell

1963
01:05:35,510 --> 01:05:33,680
is something that most artists don't

1964
01:05:37,270 --> 01:05:35,520
like most artists just want to be left

1965
01:05:39,109 --> 01:05:37,280
alone and do their art

1966
01:05:40,309 --> 01:05:39,119
and uh of course they need to eat and

1967
01:05:42,069 --> 01:05:40,319
they need to have they need to

1968
01:05:44,069 --> 01:05:42,079
have some sort of support structure and

1969
01:05:45,670 --> 01:05:44,079
so in some sense eastern germany uh

1970
01:05:47,510 --> 01:05:45,680
gave you all these things if you were

1971
01:05:48,710 --> 01:05:47,520
willing to resist the political pressure

1972
01:05:51,029 --> 01:05:48,720
and the social pressure

1973
01:05:53,109 --> 01:05:51,039
of playing along with the system if you

1974
01:05:55,589 --> 01:05:53,119
were willing to say um

1975
01:05:57,670 --> 01:05:55,599
you know you cannot do anything to me as

1976
01:06:00,710 --> 01:05:57,680
long as i have something in the fridge

1977
01:06:02,309 --> 01:06:00,720
and i just do my art uh that was amazing

1978
01:06:05,829 --> 01:06:02,319
right so you could uh

1979
01:06:08,230 --> 01:06:05,839
if you were willing to um say i'm not

1980
01:06:09,270 --> 01:06:08,240
part of this worker collective i'm i

1981
01:06:11,510 --> 01:06:09,280
don't want to have

1982
01:06:12,390 --> 01:06:11,520
a job in the factory and so on you could

1983
01:06:15,190 --> 01:06:12,400
do what my

1984
01:06:16,950 --> 01:06:15,200
father did and and he was sometimes a

1985
01:06:19,270 --> 01:06:16,960
child of 1968

1986
01:06:20,069 --> 01:06:19,280
he bought a house in the countryside a

1987
01:06:21,589 --> 01:06:20,079
watermill

1988
01:06:23,589 --> 01:06:21,599
and because he didn't get along very

1989
01:06:25,990 --> 01:06:23,599
well with society he was a nerd in some

1990
01:06:27,910 --> 01:06:26,000
sense without knowing what that was

1991
01:06:29,670 --> 01:06:27,920
and decided to have his own life built

1992
01:06:31,670 --> 01:06:29,680
his own kingdom where he wouldn't have

1993
01:06:33,349 --> 01:06:31,680
have these conflicts with the political

1994
01:06:34,710 --> 01:06:33,359
reality and the social reality of the

1995
01:06:36,230 --> 01:06:34,720
society around him

1996
01:06:38,150 --> 01:06:36,240
and could just have the life that he

1997
01:06:41,029 --> 01:06:38,160
wanted to which was painting and

1998
01:06:43,270 --> 01:06:41,039
sculptures and whatever crossed his mind

1999
01:06:44,789 --> 01:06:43,280
once you characterized fascism as a

2000
01:06:45,990 --> 01:06:44,799
super organism that doesn't care about

2001
01:06:48,069 --> 01:06:46,000
the individual cell

2002
01:06:49,990 --> 01:06:48,079
and if you're not contributing to the

2003
01:06:51,829 --> 01:06:50,000
whole then you're excised

2004
01:06:54,230 --> 01:06:51,839
and i was curious what's the difference

2005
01:06:54,549 --> 01:06:54,240
between that characterization of fascism

2006
01:06:58,789 --> 01:06:54,559
and

2007
01:07:00,309 --> 01:06:58,799
communism communism is tricky because it

2008
01:07:02,230 --> 01:07:00,319
didn't really exist right eastern

2009
01:07:02,630 --> 01:07:02,240
germany didn't call itself communist it

2010
01:07:08,950 --> 01:07:02,640
was

2011
01:07:11,270 --> 01:07:08,960
utopia that we aspire to have

2012
01:07:14,470 --> 01:07:11,280
in many many generations but it was

2013
01:07:17,430 --> 01:07:14,480
basically our promise of the afterlife

2014
01:07:18,069 --> 01:07:17,440
that justified the present injustices

2015
01:07:27,750 --> 01:07:18,079
and

2016
01:07:30,230 --> 01:07:27,760
i think that there was a big difference

2017
01:07:30,870 --> 01:07:30,240
between the socialist country that i

2018
01:07:33,670 --> 01:07:30,880
lived in

2019
01:07:34,710 --> 01:07:33,680
and fascism fascism defines the value of

2020
01:07:38,390 --> 01:07:34,720
the individual

2021
01:07:41,430 --> 01:07:38,400
exactly as its contribution to the group

2022
01:07:43,510 --> 01:07:41,440
which means if you are a disabled person

2023
01:07:45,349 --> 01:07:43,520
you should probably die because your

2024
01:07:47,109 --> 01:07:45,359
value is not negative

2025
01:07:49,349 --> 01:07:47,119
right if you are a person that is not

2026
01:07:51,589 --> 01:07:49,359
identifying as part of the group

2027
01:07:52,870 --> 01:07:51,599
for instance if you are jewish and you

2028
01:07:54,710 --> 01:07:52,880
have your own community

2029
01:07:56,230 --> 01:07:54,720
and your own values and your more

2030
01:07:59,109 --> 01:07:56,240
cosmopolitan and

2031
01:07:59,510 --> 01:07:59,119
bound to a cosmopolitan culture and not

2032
01:08:02,710 --> 01:07:59,520
to

2033
01:08:05,910 --> 01:08:02,720
the idea of supremacism of

2034
01:08:06,230 --> 01:08:05,920
white aryans um you are an enemy right

2035
01:08:11,270 --> 01:08:06,240
you

2036
01:08:13,510 --> 01:08:11,280
something that lives inside of this

2037
01:08:15,349 --> 01:08:13,520
super organism and you should be removed

2038
01:08:19,030 --> 01:08:15,359
by its immune response

2039
01:08:20,870 --> 01:08:19,040
and so this uh extreme brutality of

2040
01:08:22,390 --> 01:08:20,880
fascism that is destroying everything

2041
01:08:24,149 --> 01:08:22,400
that is not itself

2042
01:08:25,510 --> 01:08:24,159
and that is it doesn't perceive as

2043
01:08:28,709 --> 01:08:25,520
valuable uh

2044
01:08:29,990 --> 01:08:28,719
is unique to fascism in a way and uh

2045
01:08:31,669 --> 01:08:30,000
especially when you do this at an

2046
01:08:32,950 --> 01:08:31,679
industrial scale if you do this with

2047
01:08:34,630 --> 01:08:32,960
modernist principles

2048
01:08:37,030 --> 01:08:34,640
there are other societies of course

2049
01:08:38,789 --> 01:08:37,040
which uh do the same thing as fascism

2050
01:08:40,149 --> 01:08:38,799
does which eradicate all the individuals

2051
01:08:42,870 --> 01:08:40,159
that do not have

2052
01:08:44,470 --> 01:08:42,880
the warrior tribe for instance or that

2053
01:08:45,030 --> 01:08:44,480
eradicate everybody who's a little bit

2054
01:08:48,390 --> 01:08:45,040
different

2055
01:08:50,829 --> 01:08:48,400
but they don't do this at scale and

2056
01:08:52,149 --> 01:08:50,839
the socialism was also a modernist

2057
01:08:54,870 --> 01:08:52,159
society

2058
01:08:56,789 --> 01:08:54,880
so it worked at scale but it did not

2059
01:08:59,749 --> 01:08:56,799
eradicate individuals

2060
01:09:01,349 --> 01:08:59,759
for being disabled or being different

2061
01:09:04,229 --> 01:09:01,359
there was eugenicism but

2062
01:09:05,669 --> 01:09:04,239
the eugenicism existed at the same scale

2063
01:09:07,749 --> 01:09:05,679
the same amount and roughly the same

2064
01:09:10,950 --> 01:09:07,759
time span as it existed in the west

2065
01:09:12,309 --> 01:09:10,960
right so in the 1970s uh disabled people

2066
01:09:15,510 --> 01:09:12,319
were often sterilized

2067
01:09:17,590 --> 01:09:15,520
because scientists decided or

2068
01:09:18,789 --> 01:09:17,600
society decided or some group within

2069
01:09:20,309 --> 01:09:18,799
society decided

2070
01:09:21,669 --> 01:09:20,319
that they probably shouldn't have

2071
01:09:23,189 --> 01:09:21,679
offspring because most of these

2072
01:09:24,950 --> 01:09:23,199
conditions were heritable

2073
01:09:27,030 --> 01:09:24,960
and would create liability in future

2074
01:09:29,030 --> 01:09:27,040
generations so the trade-off was

2075
01:09:31,030 --> 01:09:29,040
sterilized them and something that we

2076
01:09:34,630 --> 01:09:31,040
think now is immoral

2077
01:09:36,709 --> 01:09:34,640
but uh by and large you were not being

2078
01:09:38,709 --> 01:09:36,719
eradicated because you were different

2079
01:09:40,709 --> 01:09:38,719
eastern germany didn't have gulags as

2080
01:09:44,390 --> 01:09:40,719
stalin did

2081
01:09:45,110 --> 01:09:44,400
the golex were i think arguably as bad

2082
01:09:47,990 --> 01:09:45,120
as the

2083
01:09:49,269 --> 01:09:48,000
cut sets of the fascists and they uh but

2084
01:09:50,470 --> 01:09:49,279
they targeted people more or less

2085
01:09:53,669 --> 01:09:50,480
randomly

2086
01:09:54,470 --> 01:09:53,679
like stalin killed everyone hitler

2087
01:09:56,709 --> 01:09:54,480
killed those

2088
01:09:59,030 --> 01:09:56,719
that he thought were not detrimental to

2089
01:10:02,149 --> 01:09:59,040
the state that were enemies of the state

2090
01:10:04,070 --> 01:10:02,159
and stalin killed people on a whim there

2091
01:10:06,950 --> 01:10:04,080
was no safety in stalinism

2092
01:10:07,669 --> 01:10:06,960
there was uh some safety if you were a

2093
01:10:11,990 --> 01:10:07,679
proper

2094
01:10:15,590 --> 01:10:12,000
member of society in german fascism

2095
01:10:17,669 --> 01:10:15,600
and in eastern germany it was a rather

2096
01:10:18,870 --> 01:10:17,679
civilian society the number of political

2097
01:10:21,270 --> 01:10:18,880
prisoners uh

2098
01:10:24,229 --> 01:10:21,280
was quite comparable to a number of

2099
01:10:27,270 --> 01:10:25,990
so i would say that in terms of civil

2100
01:10:30,870 --> 01:10:27,280
rights and so on it's far

2101
01:10:33,510 --> 01:10:30,880
inferior to what existed in the west

2102
01:10:35,110 --> 01:10:33,520
in the western germany but it was still

2103
01:10:36,630 --> 01:10:35,120
one of the most livable countries in the

2104
01:10:38,390 --> 01:10:36,640
east and just by being different by

2105
01:10:40,390 --> 01:10:38,400
being an artist who didn't play along

2106
01:10:42,229 --> 01:10:40,400
you didn't run the risk to get into

2107
01:10:44,070 --> 01:10:42,239
prison

2108
01:10:45,910 --> 01:10:44,080
let's get to some of your powerpoint

2109
01:10:48,630 --> 01:10:45,920
slides is that okay

2110
01:10:51,510 --> 01:10:48,640
okay let's see if i can do some screen

2111
01:10:55,030 --> 01:10:52,790
okay so it says an architecture of

2112
01:10:58,310 --> 01:10:55,040
consciousness let's see there were a few

2113
01:10:59,669 --> 01:10:58,320
points in here that i was i wasn't sure

2114
01:11:00,390 --> 01:10:59,679
exactly about okay so construction

2115
01:11:01,669 --> 01:11:00,400
process c

2116
01:11:03,510 --> 01:11:01,679
changes the brain state so this is the

2117
01:11:05,350 --> 01:11:03,520
brain state x i at some point

2118
01:11:06,630 --> 01:11:05,360
then based on the brain state changes it

2119
01:11:08,630 --> 01:11:06,640
from x i

2120
01:11:09,990 --> 01:11:08,640
one minus one which is the prior brain

2121
01:11:11,510 --> 01:11:10,000
state cool okay

2122
01:11:13,350 --> 01:11:11,520
okay so that's like almost like an

2123
01:11:15,910 --> 01:11:13,360
evolution in physics where you have a

2124
01:11:17,669 --> 01:11:15,920
state and then you evolve it by one step

2125
01:11:19,350 --> 01:11:17,679
okay okay so then you have an

2126
01:11:21,270 --> 01:11:19,360
attentional process

2127
01:11:22,550 --> 01:11:21,280
that scans the current brain state and

2128
01:11:24,229 --> 01:11:22,560
records gender

2129
01:11:26,630 --> 01:11:24,239
okay what are the generative parameters

2130
01:11:28,790 --> 01:11:26,640
of x i so excise your brain state border

2131
01:11:30,310 --> 01:11:28,800
the generative parameters

2132
01:11:31,990 --> 01:11:30,320
i think this explanation is way too

2133
01:11:33,669 --> 01:11:32,000
technical i i know i think i have a

2134
01:11:34,950 --> 01:11:33,679
better way of explaining all this than

2135
01:11:38,870 --> 01:11:34,960
these slides

2136
01:11:41,430 --> 01:11:38,880
yes 2017 after all so uh

2137
01:11:42,390 --> 01:11:41,440
imagine that uh your organism is a

2138
01:11:44,229 --> 01:11:42,400
control system

2139
01:11:46,149 --> 01:11:44,239
so there's a big control agent that is

2140
01:11:48,630 --> 01:11:46,159
regulating your body temperature

2141
01:11:49,350 --> 01:11:48,640
and it's uh moving your limbs about and

2142
01:11:51,270 --> 01:11:49,360
uh it's

2143
01:11:52,870 --> 01:11:51,280
doing all these things in the pursuit of

2144
01:11:54,390 --> 01:11:52,880
food and social interaction

2145
01:11:56,149 --> 01:11:54,400
and all the things that are important to

2146
01:11:57,430 --> 01:11:56,159
you and it's basically like a big

2147
01:11:59,990 --> 01:11:57,440
elephant

2148
01:12:01,830 --> 01:12:00,000
and your consciousness is like a monkey

2149
01:12:04,709 --> 01:12:01,840
sitting on top of that big elephant

2150
01:12:05,430 --> 01:12:04,719
and is prodding it and the purpose of

2151
01:12:07,189 --> 01:12:05,440
consciousness

2152
01:12:08,550 --> 01:12:07,199
is basically a control model of the

2153
01:12:12,550 --> 01:12:08,560
attention

2154
01:12:15,270 --> 01:12:12,560
learning

2155
01:12:16,229 --> 01:12:15,280
so what does the elephant learn the

2156
01:12:18,630 --> 01:12:16,239
elephant

2157
01:12:19,270 --> 01:12:18,640
learns in two ways it learns in some

2158
01:12:22,390 --> 01:12:19,280
sense by

2159
01:12:24,149 --> 01:12:22,400
repetition and force right so if you

2160
01:12:25,830 --> 01:12:24,159
just repeat things often enough in the

2161
01:12:27,350 --> 01:12:25,840
environment of the elephant the elephant

2162
01:12:29,430 --> 01:12:27,360
might pick it up

2163
01:12:31,270 --> 01:12:29,440
and the other thing what it learns is

2164
01:12:33,189 --> 01:12:31,280
what it pays attention to

2165
01:12:35,189 --> 01:12:33,199
and paying attention to means you single

2166
01:12:36,950 --> 01:12:35,199
out some features

2167
01:12:38,470 --> 01:12:36,960
and you explore the relationship between

2168
01:12:40,709 --> 01:12:38,480
these features and these features can be

2169
01:12:44,229 --> 01:12:40,719
far remote to each other and they can be

2170
01:12:47,110 --> 01:12:44,239
very abstractly constructed right so

2171
01:12:48,390 --> 01:12:47,120
in some sense you to be able to uh learn

2172
01:12:50,950 --> 01:12:48,400
how to

2173
01:12:52,630 --> 01:12:50,960
dance uh you need to relate extremely

2174
01:12:53,270 --> 01:12:52,640
complicated features in the world you

2175
01:12:55,350 --> 01:12:53,280
need to

2176
01:12:56,310 --> 01:12:55,360
relate the expression of your partner

2177
01:12:58,790 --> 01:12:56,320
the music

2178
01:13:00,630 --> 01:12:58,800
uh the movement of your body uh the

2179
01:13:01,110 --> 01:13:00,640
social context in which the dance takes

2180
01:13:03,590 --> 01:13:01,120
place

2181
01:13:04,950 --> 01:13:03,600
and uh lots lots of things right and to

2182
01:13:06,470 --> 01:13:04,960
do all these things well you need to

2183
01:13:08,870 --> 01:13:06,480
combine them all into

2184
01:13:09,910 --> 01:13:08,880
a unique gestalt that is very hard to

2185
01:13:12,630 --> 01:13:09,920
express in this

2186
01:13:12,950 --> 01:13:12,640
simple specification so what you need to

2187
01:13:15,350 --> 01:13:12,960
have

2188
01:13:17,189 --> 01:13:15,360
is a way of singling out all the aspects

2189
01:13:19,350 --> 01:13:17,199
that go into the dance

2190
01:13:21,030 --> 01:13:19,360
and singing out the way in which you

2191
01:13:22,870 --> 01:13:21,040
have currently related them

2192
01:13:24,229 --> 01:13:22,880
and how you would need to change them to

2193
01:13:25,990 --> 01:13:24,239
improve that

2194
01:13:27,430 --> 01:13:26,000
and you need to figure out whether this

2195
01:13:28,870 --> 01:13:27,440
model of your attention where you should

2196
01:13:30,390 --> 01:13:28,880
direct it it was a good model and

2197
01:13:31,510 --> 01:13:30,400
whether you should change it and

2198
01:13:33,510 --> 01:13:31,520
so you should change what you pay

2199
01:13:36,950 --> 01:13:33,520
attention to right attention is more

2200
01:13:40,870 --> 01:13:39,270
yes then it comes before uh so

2201
01:13:43,669 --> 01:13:40,880
consciousness is the expression

2202
01:13:44,950 --> 01:13:43,679
of attending if you don't attend if

2203
01:13:46,950 --> 01:13:44,960
there is no attention

2204
01:13:48,709 --> 01:13:46,960
at all then there can be no

2205
01:13:50,310 --> 01:13:48,719
consciousness you can only remember

2206
01:13:52,310 --> 01:13:50,320
these things as having been conscious

2207
01:13:56,149 --> 01:13:52,320
that you attended to

2208
01:13:57,830 --> 01:13:56,159
right and also it's not sufficient that

2209
01:13:59,350 --> 01:13:57,840
you attended to them you also need to

2210
01:14:01,910 --> 01:13:59,360
store the things that you

2211
01:14:03,830 --> 01:14:01,920
attended to in such a way that you can

2212
01:14:05,669 --> 01:14:03,840
recreate them later in the context of

2213
01:14:07,189 --> 01:14:05,679
having attended to them so you basically

2214
01:14:08,630 --> 01:14:07,199
need to have an attentional protocol

2215
01:14:11,430 --> 01:14:08,640
that integrates over all these

2216
01:14:15,990 --> 01:14:13,270
and so you have an attention agent

2217
01:14:17,910 --> 01:14:16,000
living inside of the control agent

2218
01:14:19,270 --> 01:14:17,920
and this attention agent is basically

2219
01:14:21,110 --> 01:14:19,280
living inside of your mind

2220
01:14:23,030 --> 01:14:21,120
okay sorry sorry hold on so you have a

2221
01:14:24,470 --> 01:14:23,040
control agent and that control agent

2222
01:14:26,229 --> 01:14:24,480
controls the attention

2223
01:14:28,709 --> 01:14:26,239
no uh you have a control agent that

2224
01:14:31,990 --> 01:14:28,719
controls the organism at large

2225
01:14:33,189 --> 01:14:32,000
the big elephant okay okay let me you're

2226
01:14:34,630 --> 01:14:33,199
just you're teaching me right now this

2227
01:14:36,390 --> 01:14:34,640
is these are office hours

2228
01:14:38,550 --> 01:14:36,400
there's a control agent then there's

2229
01:14:39,750 --> 01:14:38,560
attention and the control agent controls

2230
01:14:42,550 --> 01:14:39,760
the organism

2231
01:14:43,430 --> 01:14:42,560
yes and the mind is the expression of

2232
01:14:46,950 --> 01:14:43,440
attention

2233
01:14:49,030 --> 01:14:46,960
the mind is uh in the way i use the word

2234
01:14:50,870 --> 01:14:49,040
it's basically the uh the software that

2235
01:14:52,470 --> 01:14:50,880
runs on your brain or that emerges over

2236
01:14:54,630 --> 01:14:52,480
the activity of your brain so it's the

2237
01:14:56,630 --> 01:14:54,640
entirety of the mental processes

2238
01:14:57,750 --> 01:14:56,640
and uh you could think of it as the

2239
01:14:59,110 --> 01:14:57,760
operating system

2240
01:15:01,189 --> 01:14:59,120
okay and there's a difference between

2241
01:15:02,310 --> 01:15:01,199
mind and consciousness yes so the mind

2242
01:15:02,790 --> 01:15:02,320
is the whole including the other

2243
01:15:05,270 --> 01:15:02,800
consciousness

2244
01:15:06,790 --> 01:15:05,280
yes okay okay and yeah so i would say

2245
01:15:09,590 --> 01:15:06,800
unconscious mind makes sense

2246
01:15:10,950 --> 01:15:09,600
as a term right so uh most of the of

2247
01:15:13,830 --> 01:15:10,960
what happens in the mind is

2248
01:15:14,709 --> 01:15:13,840
is not conscious yeah and there's also

2249
01:15:16,709 --> 01:15:14,719
uh

2250
01:15:18,229 --> 01:15:16,719
maybe we should go into this separately

2251
01:15:19,510 --> 01:15:18,239
but maybe we should do it now there is

2252
01:15:22,310 --> 01:15:19,520
this very big issue

2253
01:15:23,350 --> 01:15:22,320
uh what does it mean to be conscious

2254
01:15:25,270 --> 01:15:23,360
right it's

2255
01:15:27,750 --> 01:15:25,280
it's unimaginable that the physical

2256
01:15:28,470 --> 01:15:27,760
system like the clockwork could become

2257
01:15:30,229 --> 01:15:28,480
conscious

2258
01:15:31,590 --> 01:15:30,239
how would the physical system become

2259
01:15:33,910 --> 01:15:31,600
conscious something that

2260
01:15:35,910 --> 01:15:33,920
leibniz describes for instance uh with a

2261
01:15:38,470 --> 01:15:35,920
metaphor of a mill imagine that

2262
01:15:40,149 --> 01:15:38,480
your mind was like a big mill of all

2263
01:15:41,590 --> 01:15:40,159
these moving parts and so on and you

2264
01:15:43,189 --> 01:15:41,600
enlarge it in such a way that you can

2265
01:15:45,110 --> 01:15:43,199
enter it and you see all these

2266
01:15:46,229 --> 01:15:45,120
mechanical parts pushing and pulling

2267
01:15:48,229 --> 01:15:46,239
against each other

2268
01:15:50,149 --> 01:15:48,239
there is nothing in there over which

2269
01:15:52,790 --> 01:15:50,159
feelings and emotion and perception

2270
01:15:55,590 --> 01:15:52,800
consciousness could arise

2271
01:15:56,950 --> 01:15:55,600
and this is uh it's very strong

2272
01:15:59,189 --> 01:15:56,960
intuition that also drives

2273
01:16:01,270 --> 01:15:59,199
uh so earl's chinese room argument that

2274
01:16:03,350 --> 01:16:01,280
i think is a reformulation of

2275
01:16:04,630 --> 01:16:03,360
uh leibniz intuition pump here yeah so

2276
01:16:05,590 --> 01:16:04,640
what do you think of that experiment the

2277
01:16:09,270 --> 01:16:05,600
chinese room

2278
01:16:12,550 --> 01:16:09,280
so uh i think the difficulty is that uh

2279
01:16:12,950 --> 01:16:12,560
the uh it's a category mistake to think

2280
01:16:18,390 --> 01:16:12,960
that

2281
01:16:20,149 --> 01:16:18,400
so imagine you were trying to build an

2282
01:16:23,189 --> 01:16:20,159
artificial agent

2283
01:16:25,030 --> 01:16:23,199
that is conscious in the same way as you

2284
01:16:26,790 --> 01:16:25,040
and me are

2285
01:16:28,310 --> 01:16:26,800
you we cannot do this with the physical

2286
01:16:30,149 --> 01:16:28,320
system right the physical system cannot

2287
01:16:31,910 --> 01:16:30,159
be conscious apparently

2288
01:16:33,430 --> 01:16:31,920
so you would have to simulate it you

2289
01:16:36,870 --> 01:16:33,440
have to make it as if

2290
01:16:38,470 --> 01:16:36,880
to pretend to be conscious

2291
01:16:40,229 --> 01:16:38,480
how would you do this you would you need

2292
01:16:42,709 --> 01:16:40,239
for instance to have qualia qualia

2293
01:16:44,390 --> 01:16:42,719
are the features of experience there are

2294
01:16:45,830 --> 01:16:44,400
things like colors and sounds and the

2295
01:16:49,110 --> 01:16:45,840
relationship between them

2296
01:16:50,870 --> 01:16:49,120
and surfaces and the experience of

2297
01:16:52,390 --> 01:16:50,880
information flowing through space and

2298
01:16:55,270 --> 01:16:52,400
being hindered their pressure

2299
01:16:57,030 --> 01:16:55,280
and lightness and heaviness and so on

2300
01:16:57,990 --> 01:16:57,040
right and valence something feels good

2301
01:17:02,310 --> 01:16:58,000
or bad

2302
01:17:03,830 --> 01:17:02,320
to leave that state or attracts you to

2303
01:17:05,669 --> 01:17:03,840
that state and so on

2304
01:17:06,950 --> 01:17:05,679
and all these dimensions these feature

2305
01:17:08,950 --> 01:17:06,960
dimensions we can of course

2306
01:17:11,590 --> 01:17:08,960
implement as basically geometrical

2307
01:17:15,270 --> 01:17:11,600
models that we can compute

2308
01:17:17,270 --> 01:17:15,280
with formal systems of our choice

2309
01:17:18,790 --> 01:17:17,280
so it's there is technical difficulty in

2310
01:17:20,550 --> 01:17:18,800
how to get all these computations right

2311
01:17:22,870 --> 01:17:20,560
but there is nothing mysterious about

2312
01:17:23,990 --> 01:17:22,880
how to make a system that behaves as if

2313
01:17:25,910 --> 01:17:24,000
it would see colors

2314
01:17:27,830 --> 01:17:25,920
right it's going to not just measure the

2315
01:17:29,270 --> 01:17:27,840
wavelengths but it's going to generalize

2316
01:17:30,870 --> 01:17:29,280
the wavelength in such a way that it

2317
01:17:32,390 --> 01:17:30,880
normalizes over average highlighting

2318
01:17:33,030 --> 01:17:32,400
conditions says for instance red is

2319
01:17:34,950 --> 01:17:33,040
something

2320
01:17:36,070 --> 01:17:34,960
that passes as red under arbitrary

2321
01:17:38,630 --> 01:17:36,080
lighting conditions

2322
01:17:40,229 --> 01:17:38,640
on the surface of an object that is red

2323
01:17:42,070 --> 01:17:40,239
and that you generalize this over all

2324
01:17:43,590 --> 01:17:42,080
the red objects and then you also get

2325
01:17:47,510 --> 01:17:43,600
the associations to

2326
01:17:51,270 --> 01:17:47,520
blood and the flag of the working class

2327
01:17:54,550 --> 01:17:51,280
and to roses and love and heat

2328
01:17:57,590 --> 01:17:54,560
right all the rednesses are now one step

2329
01:17:59,669 --> 01:17:57,600
away from this abstraction of red that

2330
01:18:01,189 --> 01:17:59,679
can be translated as a feature dimension

2331
01:18:04,310 --> 01:18:01,199
as part of the

2332
01:18:06,709 --> 01:18:04,320
simulated experience of a virtual system

2333
01:18:08,550 --> 01:18:06,719
and so uh of course this experience is

2334
01:18:09,669 --> 01:18:08,560
not real there is not really any

2335
01:18:11,830 --> 01:18:09,679
physical system that

2336
01:18:13,750 --> 01:18:11,840
experiences anything it's only being

2337
01:18:15,110 --> 01:18:13,760
represented as if it was it's basically

2338
01:18:18,229 --> 01:18:15,120
like a multimedia story

2339
01:18:19,910 --> 01:18:18,239
it's not written in words in a natural

2340
01:18:20,870 --> 01:18:19,920
language or in a logical language but

2341
01:18:21,990 --> 01:18:20,880
it's written in

2342
01:18:24,550 --> 01:18:22,000
something like a machine learning

2343
01:18:26,709 --> 01:18:24,560
language and then this model is being

2344
01:18:28,470 --> 01:18:26,719
used to drive the behavior of the agent

2345
01:18:30,790 --> 01:18:28,480
it's a control model that is being used

2346
01:18:32,149 --> 01:18:30,800
to inform what the system should learn

2347
01:18:34,790 --> 01:18:32,159
and how it should interact with the

2348
01:18:36,550 --> 01:18:34,800
environment and as a result it produces

2349
01:18:38,070 --> 01:18:36,560
new steps that produces new model

2350
01:18:39,750 --> 01:18:38,080
contents and some of these model

2351
01:18:41,590 --> 01:18:39,760
contents are for instance thoughts

2352
01:18:43,189 --> 01:18:41,600
these are not real thoughts these are as

2353
01:18:46,790 --> 01:18:43,199
if sorts which means

2354
01:18:49,510 --> 01:18:46,800
there are conceptual and linguistic and

2355
01:18:51,030 --> 01:18:49,520
idiotic and imagined configurations of

2356
01:18:52,470 --> 01:18:51,040
such features

2357
01:18:54,149 --> 01:18:52,480
that give rise to the next set of

2358
01:18:55,430 --> 01:18:54,159
features to the next set of thoughts and

2359
01:18:57,350 --> 01:18:55,440
experiences right

2360
01:18:59,590 --> 01:18:57,360
again these are virtual they're not real

2361
01:19:01,510 --> 01:18:59,600
here the is what if the system would

2362
01:19:02,229 --> 01:19:01,520
feel something what if it there was a

2363
01:19:03,830 --> 01:19:02,239
person

2364
01:19:05,350 --> 01:19:03,840
what if there were social interactions

2365
01:19:08,630 --> 01:19:05,360
that would matter to the system

2366
01:19:09,189 --> 01:19:08,640
what if that would experience red in a

2367
01:19:10,870 --> 01:19:09,199
way that

2368
01:19:12,550 --> 01:19:10,880
corresponds to heat and so on right so

2369
01:19:15,510 --> 01:19:12,560
you build all this into the system

2370
01:19:16,470 --> 01:19:15,520
and you let it drive behavior including

2371
01:19:18,470 --> 01:19:16,480
speech

2372
01:19:19,750 --> 01:19:18,480
and self reports and it gives rise to

2373
01:19:20,790 --> 01:19:19,760
the next set of things

2374
01:19:23,430 --> 01:19:20,800
so this system would be

2375
01:19:25,110 --> 01:19:23,440
indistinguishable from us right

2376
01:19:26,709 --> 01:19:25,120
because it's also thinking the same

2377
01:19:28,950 --> 01:19:26,719
things now it's producing the same

2378
01:19:30,790 --> 01:19:28,960
thoughts and producing the same story

2379
01:19:32,550 --> 01:19:30,800
and it would have emotions and

2380
01:19:34,149 --> 01:19:32,560
experiences

2381
01:19:35,910 --> 01:19:34,159
it was experienced phenomena for the

2382
01:19:37,030 --> 01:19:35,920
same reason that a character in a novel

2383
01:19:38,390 --> 01:19:37,040
experiences it

2384
01:19:40,630 --> 01:19:38,400
because it's being written into the

2385
01:19:42,229 --> 01:19:40,640
novel by the author in our case the

2386
01:19:44,149 --> 01:19:42,239
author is the mind

2387
01:19:45,910 --> 01:19:44,159
and i think the answer to the big

2388
01:19:47,910 --> 01:19:45,920
question how is it that we can be

2389
01:19:49,910 --> 01:19:47,920
conscious in the physical universe is

2390
01:19:51,990 --> 01:19:49,920
we are not in the physical universe that

2391
01:19:53,270 --> 01:19:52,000
we only exist in that story we only

2392
01:19:55,910 --> 01:19:53,280
exist in the dream

2393
01:19:56,470 --> 01:19:55,920
that's written by the mind so this is

2394
01:20:00,470 --> 01:19:56,480
the

2395
01:20:02,149 --> 01:20:00,480
consciousness is virtual

2396
01:20:03,990 --> 01:20:02,159
and the experience of realness that we

2397
01:20:05,510 --> 01:20:04,000
have is not the realness of the physical

2398
01:20:07,350 --> 01:20:05,520
universe because the physical universe

2399
01:20:10,390 --> 01:20:07,360
doesn't feel like anything right

2400
01:20:12,310 --> 01:20:10,400
reality doesn't feel real what feels

2401
01:20:14,390 --> 01:20:12,320
real is only simulacrum only a

2402
01:20:17,030 --> 01:20:14,400
simulation can feel real

2403
01:20:19,830 --> 01:20:17,040
to a simulacrum realness itself not

2404
01:20:22,790 --> 01:20:19,840
reality is a simulated property

2405
01:20:24,149 --> 01:20:22,800
consciousness is a simulated property of

2406
01:20:25,990 --> 01:20:24,159
a simulated system

2407
01:20:27,990 --> 01:20:26,000
a physical system cannot be conscious

2408
01:20:31,030 --> 01:20:28,000
only a simulation can be conscious

2409
01:20:33,189 --> 01:20:31,040
outside of the dream there is nobody

2410
01:20:35,270 --> 01:20:33,199
so we're conscious because we're part of

2411
01:20:37,510 --> 01:20:35,280
the story that the brain tells itself

2412
01:20:38,790 --> 01:20:37,520
yes the only conscious inside of the

2413
01:20:40,709 --> 01:20:38,800
story

2414
01:20:42,229 --> 01:20:40,719
and we are inside we are characters in

2415
01:20:42,870 --> 01:20:42,239
in a story that the brain is telling

2416
01:20:44,790 --> 01:20:42,880
itself

2417
01:20:46,070 --> 01:20:44,800
and we can talk across stories so here

2418
01:20:47,110 --> 01:20:46,080
we are

2419
01:20:49,030 --> 01:20:47,120
right now here's where i'm having

2420
01:20:50,149 --> 01:20:49,040
trouble because if i write a lord of the

2421
01:20:52,229 --> 01:20:50,159
rings for example

2422
01:20:53,910 --> 01:20:52,239
is frodo baggins actually feeling

2423
01:20:55,990 --> 01:20:53,920
something or is he just scribbles on a

2424
01:20:57,590 --> 01:20:56,000
paper just because it's a story

2425
01:20:59,030 --> 01:20:57,600
doesn't mean it has to have experiences

2426
01:21:02,149 --> 01:20:59,040
associated with it

2427
01:21:02,629 --> 01:21:02,159
so so why do we question is what do you

2428
01:21:05,910 --> 01:21:02,639
mean by

2429
01:21:07,350 --> 01:21:05,920
is right so uh this is the story

2430
01:21:10,070 --> 01:21:07,360
it sounds like it sounds like bill

2431
01:21:10,790 --> 01:21:10,080
clinton it depends upon what the meaning

2432
01:21:14,149 --> 01:21:10,800
of the word

2433
01:21:14,790 --> 01:21:14,159
is yes yes so it has to do with the

2434
01:21:18,070 --> 01:21:14,800
question of

2435
01:21:21,430 --> 01:21:18,080
uh what's being taken as the uh

2436
01:21:23,750 --> 01:21:21,440
of of reality uh i think that

2437
01:21:25,430 --> 01:21:23,760
reality that cannot be experienced is

2438
01:21:27,750 --> 01:21:25,440
very unsatisfying right it's not the

2439
01:21:30,390 --> 01:21:27,760
reality that most people would refer to

2440
01:21:32,229 --> 01:21:30,400
the experience of reality is something

2441
01:21:34,229 --> 01:21:32,239
that is virtual it's something that's

2442
01:21:35,430 --> 01:21:34,239
it's the experience of the vr generated

2443
01:21:37,189 --> 01:21:35,440
by your mind

2444
01:21:39,750 --> 01:21:37,199
right it's a virtual reality that you

2445
01:21:41,510 --> 01:21:39,760
inhabit as a non-player character

2446
01:21:43,270 --> 01:21:41,520
and the non-player character is

2447
01:21:45,110 --> 01:21:43,280
generated by the mind as well

2448
01:21:47,910 --> 01:21:45,120
to describe the interactions of the

2449
01:21:49,430 --> 01:21:47,920
organism with the world

2450
01:21:51,030 --> 01:21:49,440
right it's a story about what the

2451
01:21:51,830 --> 01:21:51,040
organism does in the words the best

2452
01:21:54,870 --> 01:21:51,840
story that

2453
01:21:56,950 --> 01:21:54,880
the mind can come up with and this story

2454
01:21:59,189 --> 01:21:56,960
is being used to inform the behavior of

2455
01:22:01,110 --> 01:21:59,199
the organism

2456
01:22:03,350 --> 01:22:01,120
and you cannot break out of the story

2457
01:22:07,110 --> 01:22:03,360
that's why the story is real to you so

2458
01:22:10,070 --> 01:22:07,120
the the thing is to uh to frodo

2459
01:22:10,790 --> 01:22:10,080
his feelings are real in the story to us

2460
01:22:12,550 --> 01:22:10,800
they're not

2461
01:22:14,629 --> 01:22:12,560
because we see this from the outside we

2462
01:22:16,310 --> 01:22:14,639
see how this thing can be constructed we

2463
01:22:17,350 --> 01:22:16,320
can even change the story if we have a

2464
01:22:18,709 --> 01:22:17,360
pen and paper

2465
01:22:20,470 --> 01:22:18,719
and can make him feel something

2466
01:22:22,390 --> 01:22:20,480
different but

2467
01:22:23,990 --> 01:22:22,400
to frodo himself it doesn't make sense

2468
01:22:26,310 --> 01:22:24,000
that his feelings are real to him

2469
01:22:29,430 --> 01:22:26,320
unless we write into the story that they

2470
01:22:32,070 --> 01:22:29,440
suddenly don't feel real to him anymore

2471
01:22:32,470 --> 01:22:32,080
right give me a scenario where you can

2472
01:22:35,910 --> 01:22:32,480
write

2473
01:22:38,390 --> 01:22:35,920
and make a conscious being

2474
01:22:38,950 --> 01:22:38,400
from your writing of a story do you just

2475
01:22:41,590 --> 01:22:38,960
write

2476
01:22:43,510 --> 01:22:41,600
frodo now feels so and so and then frodo

2477
01:22:45,910 --> 01:22:43,520
actually does feel so and so

2478
01:22:47,750 --> 01:22:45,920
so it doesn't work with natural language

2479
01:22:48,310 --> 01:22:47,760
you have to use a functional language

2480
01:22:51,350 --> 01:22:48,320
that

2481
01:22:52,550 --> 01:22:51,360
is it's basically not just giving rise

2482
01:22:54,550 --> 01:22:52,560
to a description of

2483
01:22:56,149 --> 01:22:54,560
what photo is doing but you need to have

2484
01:22:59,189 --> 01:22:56,159
a functional implementation

2485
01:23:00,629 --> 01:22:59,199
of an agent in an environment right so

2486
01:23:02,310 --> 01:23:00,639
you need to have something like a

2487
01:23:03,990 --> 01:23:02,320
representation of middle earth and you

2488
01:23:06,229 --> 01:23:04,000
need to have a control agent inside of

2489
01:23:09,270 --> 01:23:06,239
middle earth that is being controlled by

2490
01:23:11,830 --> 01:23:09,280
a frodo self

2491
01:23:12,790 --> 01:23:11,840
and photo self is a model of what frodo

2492
01:23:14,229 --> 01:23:12,800
is

2493
01:23:16,229 --> 01:23:14,239
and it's a model of basically the

2494
01:23:17,910 --> 01:23:16,239
affordances of that agent and the state

2495
01:23:19,669 --> 01:23:17,920
of that agent that is driven by that

2496
01:23:22,870 --> 01:23:19,679
control model

2497
01:23:25,510 --> 01:23:22,880
contain

2498
01:23:26,470 --> 01:23:25,520
thoughts that are the result of produce

2499
01:23:29,270 --> 01:23:26,480
interaction

2500
01:23:30,149 --> 01:23:29,280
with photo's environment and the

2501
01:23:32,870 --> 01:23:30,159
thoughts

2502
01:23:35,510 --> 01:23:32,880
when photo is implemented properly will

2503
01:23:37,669 --> 01:23:35,520
reflect on the needs that this agent has

2504
01:23:39,510 --> 01:23:37,679
and the needs uh are in the agent

2505
01:23:41,270 --> 01:23:39,520
because they're being programmed into it

2506
01:23:43,669 --> 01:23:41,280
right it behaves according to these

2507
01:23:46,070 --> 01:23:43,679
needs and the if the model is adequate

2508
01:23:48,070 --> 01:23:46,080
and is con conforming to those needs

2509
01:23:49,430 --> 01:23:48,080
then this model is representing uh

2510
01:23:51,430 --> 01:23:49,440
pleasure and pain

2511
01:23:52,629 --> 01:23:51,440
in such a way that voter would describe

2512
01:23:54,229 --> 01:23:52,639
them similar to

2513
01:23:56,310 --> 01:23:54,239
the way that we would describe pleasure

2514
01:23:57,990 --> 01:23:56,320
and pain and he would describe them

2515
01:24:00,870 --> 01:23:58,000
as his thoughts because that's the best

2516
01:24:03,430 --> 01:24:00,880
uh implementation of its control model

2517
01:24:05,189 --> 01:24:03,440
that photo's mind can come up with

2518
01:24:07,110 --> 01:24:05,199
so the language that is being used is

2519
01:24:09,750 --> 01:24:07,120
not a natural language is not

2520
01:24:11,110 --> 01:24:09,760
english words or something it's a

2521
01:24:14,310 --> 01:24:11,120
functional language it's

2522
01:24:16,310 --> 01:24:14,320
a programming language in a way

2523
01:24:18,390 --> 01:24:16,320
so can you then take that and stimulate

2524
01:24:20,070 --> 01:24:18,400
a small consciousness

2525
01:24:21,669 --> 01:24:20,080
let's because we mentioned that it's

2526
01:24:23,110 --> 01:24:21,679
extremely complex to do something like a

2527
01:24:25,590 --> 01:24:23,120
human at least at this

2528
01:24:27,750 --> 01:24:25,600
at least in 2020. can we make a small

2529
01:24:30,629 --> 01:24:27,760
conscious agent

2530
01:24:31,270 --> 01:24:30,639
i think that we can but if the agent is

2531
01:24:33,270 --> 01:24:31,280
too small

2532
01:24:35,590 --> 01:24:33,280
it's very difficult to ascribe an

2533
01:24:38,149 --> 01:24:35,600
interesting type of consciousness to it

2534
01:24:39,910 --> 01:24:38,159
and the biggest difficulty is if you

2535
01:24:41,910 --> 01:24:39,920
have a conscious system that is not able

2536
01:24:42,709 --> 01:24:41,920
to attend to anything meaningful that we

2537
01:24:45,430 --> 01:24:42,719
can relate to

2538
01:24:47,189 --> 01:24:45,440
how can we say that it tends to anything

2539
01:24:48,950 --> 01:24:47,199
and in a way the biggest unsolved

2540
01:24:49,990 --> 01:24:48,960
problem of artificial intelligence is

2541
01:24:53,270 --> 01:24:50,000
not consciousness

2542
01:24:54,229 --> 01:24:53,280
it's understanding and understanding

2543
01:24:57,270 --> 01:24:54,239
means that we map

2544
01:24:59,189 --> 01:24:57,280
everything that we perceive onto a

2545
01:25:01,910 --> 01:24:59,199
unified model of the universe

2546
01:25:02,790 --> 01:25:01,920
more or less unified but it's uh we

2547
01:25:05,030 --> 01:25:02,800
basically

2548
01:25:07,110 --> 01:25:05,040
explain something by creating a

2549
01:25:08,950 --> 01:25:07,120
relationship to a unified meaning

2550
01:25:10,390 --> 01:25:08,960
and the unified meaning is our model of

2551
01:25:12,310 --> 01:25:10,400
the world and

2552
01:25:13,990 --> 01:25:12,320
everything that we perceive we are able

2553
01:25:14,629 --> 01:25:14,000
to integrate into this model of the

2554
01:25:16,310 --> 01:25:14,639
world

2555
01:25:20,070 --> 01:25:16,320
and this is something that our ai

2556
01:25:21,430 --> 01:25:20,080
systems are so far incapable of doing

2557
01:25:23,270 --> 01:25:21,440
everything i think we are getting there

2558
01:25:26,229 --> 01:25:23,280
but uh yeah

2559
01:25:27,350 --> 01:25:26,239
is understanding predicated on

2560
01:25:32,470 --> 01:25:27,360
consciousness

2561
01:25:34,229 --> 01:25:32,480
understanding

2562
01:25:35,750 --> 01:25:34,239
and it depends a little bit on how we

2563
01:25:38,550 --> 01:25:35,760
would define understanding

2564
01:25:39,350 --> 01:25:38,560
so uh to understand something in the uh

2565
01:25:41,830 --> 01:25:39,360
it's often

2566
01:25:43,590 --> 01:25:41,840
seen as a verb that means there is a

2567
01:25:45,510 --> 01:25:43,600
relationship between the

2568
01:25:47,189 --> 01:25:45,520
one who understands it and the thing

2569
01:25:48,870 --> 01:25:47,199
that is being understood which means you

2570
01:25:52,070 --> 01:25:48,880
have to have a self concept

2571
01:25:53,590 --> 01:25:52,080
and and a system that can attend and uh

2572
01:25:55,110 --> 01:25:53,600
the self concept needs to have a

2573
01:25:56,229 --> 01:25:55,120
representation of the fact that it's

2574
01:25:58,470 --> 01:25:56,239
currently attending

2575
01:25:59,350 --> 01:25:58,480
and what's in the focus of attention and

2576
01:26:00,870 --> 01:25:59,360
i think if

2577
01:26:02,790 --> 01:26:00,880
the question of whether a system is

2578
01:26:04,709 --> 01:26:02,800
conscious comes down to the question of

2579
01:26:06,070 --> 01:26:04,719
whether it has a functional model of

2580
01:26:08,870 --> 01:26:06,080
what it's attending to

2581
01:26:09,669 --> 01:26:08,880
and the fact that it's attending to it

2582
01:26:11,510 --> 01:26:09,679
right so

2583
01:26:13,669 --> 01:26:11,520
uh you have to have these two aspects

2584
01:26:15,270 --> 01:26:13,679
there's contents of attention

2585
01:26:17,350 --> 01:26:15,280
and the fact that you are currently

2586
01:26:17,990 --> 01:26:17,360
aware of them you using this attentional

2587
01:26:19,510 --> 01:26:18,000
process

2588
01:26:21,110 --> 01:26:19,520
once you have that i think it makes

2589
01:26:22,550 --> 01:26:21,120
sense to ascribe consciousness to the

2590
01:26:23,990 --> 01:26:22,560
system

2591
01:26:25,350 --> 01:26:24,000
have you heard of the other theories of

2592
01:26:26,709 --> 01:26:25,360
consciousness like the integrated

2593
01:26:28,390 --> 01:26:26,719
information theory

2594
01:26:32,390 --> 01:26:28,400
and daniel denetz and so on what do you

2595
01:26:36,390 --> 01:26:32,400
think of them well let's go iit

2596
01:26:36,950 --> 01:26:36,400
i think that iit is several things so it

2597
01:26:39,110 --> 01:26:36,960
starts

2598
01:26:40,629 --> 01:26:39,120
out if you look at the axioms of iit

2599
01:26:42,390 --> 01:26:40,639
with the

2600
01:26:43,750 --> 01:26:42,400
phenomenologist description of

2601
01:26:45,669 --> 01:26:43,760
consciousness it describes what

2602
01:26:47,750 --> 01:26:45,679
consciousness feels like from the inside

2603
01:26:50,470 --> 01:26:47,760
so for instance you have this

2604
01:26:51,189 --> 01:26:50,480
impression over here and now and this uh

2605
01:26:52,950 --> 01:26:51,199
here and now

2606
01:26:54,550 --> 01:26:52,960
is distinct from the physical here and

2607
01:26:56,550 --> 01:26:54,560
now i think

2608
01:26:58,390 --> 01:26:56,560
something that uh iit as far as i'm

2609
01:26:59,350 --> 01:26:58,400
aware doesn't really emphasize but it's

2610
01:27:01,669 --> 01:26:59,360
pretty clear

2611
01:27:02,790 --> 01:27:01,679
that uh from the perspective of the here

2612
01:27:05,110 --> 01:27:02,800
and now in consciousness

2613
01:27:06,149 --> 01:27:05,120
uh the physical universe is is not in

2614
01:27:09,510 --> 01:27:06,159
that here and now

2615
01:27:10,950 --> 01:27:09,520
and cannot be because we often construct

2616
01:27:14,070 --> 01:27:10,960
the conscious experience

2617
01:27:15,669 --> 01:27:14,080
after the fact or predictively

2618
01:27:18,550 --> 01:27:15,679
which means the the here and now of

2619
01:27:21,830 --> 01:27:18,560
physics is smeared out

2620
01:27:23,270 --> 01:27:21,840
right and we are able to experience

2621
01:27:25,990 --> 01:27:23,280
things consciously that

2622
01:27:28,229 --> 01:27:26,000
don't happen physically not just because

2623
01:27:28,870 --> 01:27:28,239
we are simplifying them but uh because

2624
01:27:31,430 --> 01:27:28,880
we

2625
01:27:33,669 --> 01:27:31,440
feed emerge the features of our models

2626
01:27:35,830 --> 01:27:33,679
in a way that is not compatible with the

2627
01:27:37,830 --> 01:27:35,840
physical universe but that is useful

2628
01:27:39,590 --> 01:27:37,840
to the control of the physical universe

2629
01:27:41,270 --> 01:27:39,600
so basically the contents of our

2630
01:27:42,950 --> 01:27:41,280
consciousness are determined by what

2631
01:27:44,470 --> 01:27:42,960
makes up useful control model

2632
01:27:46,229 --> 01:27:44,480
not by what's physically possible and

2633
01:27:49,270 --> 01:27:46,239
what's physically happening

2634
01:27:52,229 --> 01:27:49,280
the other aspect of iit is

2635
01:27:52,870 --> 01:27:52,239
its denial of functionalism so iit in

2636
01:27:56,229 --> 01:27:52,880
some sense

2637
01:27:59,430 --> 01:27:56,239
is makes metaphysical assumptions

2638
01:28:02,229 --> 01:27:59,440
and these metaphysical assumptions i i

2639
01:28:05,270 --> 01:28:02,239
suspect amount to pancychism

2640
01:28:07,430 --> 01:28:05,280
which means that um consciousness

2641
01:28:09,669 --> 01:28:07,440
is in some sense inseparable for matter

2642
01:28:11,030 --> 01:28:09,679
or from the background of the universe

2643
01:28:12,550 --> 01:28:11,040
therefore it must be an intrinsic

2644
01:28:15,830 --> 01:28:12,560
property of matter itself

2645
01:28:17,830 --> 01:28:15,840
you could say imagine you cannot just

2646
01:28:19,669 --> 01:28:17,840
determine what color is and if you look

2647
01:28:21,830 --> 01:28:19,679
with the microscope is you cannot

2648
01:28:23,590 --> 01:28:21,840
see what color is made of right color

2649
01:28:26,550 --> 01:28:23,600
doesn't have components so

2650
01:28:28,470 --> 01:28:26,560
uh color must be an intrinsic part of

2651
01:28:30,870 --> 01:28:28,480
matter color is not made by matter

2652
01:28:31,830 --> 01:28:30,880
it's inseparable for matter every matter

2653
01:28:34,149 --> 01:28:31,840
contains color

2654
01:28:35,510 --> 01:28:34,159
right right this is almost correct but

2655
01:28:37,030 --> 01:28:35,520
it's not because

2656
01:28:38,709 --> 01:28:37,040
if you zoom in at a certain point there

2657
01:28:40,709 --> 01:28:38,719
is no more color

2658
01:28:42,229 --> 01:28:40,719
color only makes sense as a kind of

2659
01:28:43,990 --> 01:28:42,239
interpretation of

2660
01:28:46,229 --> 01:28:44,000
what we sense about matter and i think

2661
01:28:48,709 --> 01:28:46,239
that's also true for consciousness

2662
01:28:50,790 --> 01:28:48,719
right consciousness only exists within

2663
01:28:53,110 --> 01:28:50,800
minds not within the physical universe

2664
01:28:55,270 --> 01:28:53,120
and so in some sense iit i think is

2665
01:28:58,070 --> 01:28:55,280
putting the locus of consciousness into

2666
01:29:00,310 --> 01:28:58,080
a domain where it doesn't belong

2667
01:29:01,910 --> 01:29:00,320
and then there are the technical aspects

2668
01:29:05,669 --> 01:29:01,920
of the implementation of

2669
01:29:08,629 --> 01:29:05,679
uh the i t series iit

2670
01:29:09,590 --> 01:29:08,639
that is this factor phi the measure of

2671
01:29:11,910 --> 01:29:09,600
integration

2672
01:29:13,350 --> 01:29:11,920
and uh there are some good aspects about

2673
01:29:16,870 --> 01:29:13,360
this uh so

2674
01:29:19,669 --> 01:29:16,880
in the sense that uh your own neocortex

2675
01:29:21,030 --> 01:29:19,679
is uh integrating information in such a

2676
01:29:22,390 --> 01:29:21,040
way that when a lot of it is

2677
01:29:25,350 --> 01:29:22,400
synchronized

2678
01:29:26,229 --> 01:29:25,360
and is stored uh in an intentional

2679
01:29:28,310 --> 01:29:26,239
protocol

2680
01:29:29,750 --> 01:29:28,320
then you will probably have a larger

2681
01:29:31,830 --> 01:29:29,760
focus of your

2682
01:29:33,750 --> 01:29:31,840
attentional awareness than when you have

2683
01:29:35,110 --> 01:29:33,760
when your uh consciousness is highly

2684
01:29:36,950 --> 01:29:35,120
fragmented and your

2685
01:29:38,790 --> 01:29:36,960
this will be reflected in the

2686
01:29:39,430 --> 01:29:38,800
fragmentation of the cortical contents

2687
01:29:40,950 --> 01:29:39,440
which means

2688
01:29:43,510 --> 01:29:40,960
that a lot of it is not firing in

2689
01:29:44,310 --> 01:29:43,520
synchrony and this is being described to

2690
01:29:47,350 --> 01:29:44,320
some degree

2691
01:29:48,229 --> 01:29:47,360
by phi but uh this is a relatively small

2692
01:29:51,030 --> 01:29:48,239
aspect in this

2693
01:29:51,990 --> 01:29:51,040
of of phi and i think if you go deeper

2694
01:29:54,390 --> 01:29:52,000
and try to make

2695
01:29:56,390 --> 01:29:54,400
more out of phi then it falls apart

2696
01:29:57,430 --> 01:29:56,400
because you it's no longer necessary in

2697
01:29:59,430 --> 01:29:57,440
sufficient condition

2698
01:30:01,189 --> 01:29:59,440
you don't know what gradual states of

2699
01:30:04,310 --> 01:30:01,199
phi mean and so on

2700
01:30:05,990 --> 01:30:04,320
so i i don't think that i buy iit at

2701
01:30:07,669 --> 01:30:06,000
this point it's not explaining how this

2702
01:30:11,030 --> 01:30:07,679
phenomenon comes about

2703
01:30:13,830 --> 01:30:11,040
and it's uh descriptive and it

2704
01:30:16,149 --> 01:30:13,840
has metaphysics that cannot be evidenced

2705
01:30:19,270 --> 01:30:16,159
that are not predictive

2706
01:30:21,270 --> 01:30:19,280
um the next thing was donald hoffman i

2707
01:30:23,030 --> 01:30:21,280
by donald hoffman's first part of the

2708
01:30:24,950 --> 01:30:23,040
theory which is typically

2709
01:30:26,390 --> 01:30:24,960
the world looks nothing like what we

2710
01:30:29,990 --> 01:30:26,400
experience it as

2711
01:30:33,270 --> 01:30:30,000
that is obviously the case and

2712
01:30:36,629 --> 01:30:33,280
the second half

2713
01:30:38,950 --> 01:30:36,639
i don't follow it's a uh depends on

2714
01:30:40,950 --> 01:30:38,960
in which way you look at uh what he

2715
01:30:44,629 --> 01:30:40,960
writes and spells out

2716
01:30:45,110 --> 01:30:44,639
so uh the second part to me is the thing

2717
01:30:46,950 --> 01:30:45,120
that

2718
01:30:48,870 --> 01:30:46,960
computers are an inadequate

2719
01:30:50,229 --> 01:30:48,880
representation of what our brains are

2720
01:30:51,510 --> 01:30:50,239
doing our brains are not computers

2721
01:30:53,430 --> 01:30:51,520
there's something else

2722
01:30:56,950 --> 01:30:53,440
and i think this results from a

2723
01:30:58,870 --> 01:30:56,960
misunderstanding of what a computer is

2724
01:31:00,790 --> 01:30:58,880
there so he's he's driving the intuition

2725
01:31:02,070 --> 01:31:00,800
here that a computer is a digital von

2726
01:31:05,669 --> 01:31:02,080
neumann machine similar

2727
01:31:05,910 --> 01:31:05,679
to a pc and our brain is not organized

2728
01:31:09,430 --> 01:31:05,920
in

2729
01:31:11,750 --> 01:31:09,440
computers are

2730
01:31:12,709 --> 01:31:11,760
our brains are self-organizing systems

2731
01:31:14,550 --> 01:31:12,719
there are

2732
01:31:16,310 --> 01:31:14,560
oscillators and they use very different

2733
01:31:18,629 --> 01:31:16,320
ways of translating

2734
01:31:19,830 --> 01:31:18,639
the information between the different

2735
01:31:21,830 --> 01:31:19,840
parts and

2736
01:31:23,189 --> 01:31:21,840
achieving coherence and so on than our

2737
01:31:25,110 --> 01:31:23,199
digital computers are

2738
01:31:27,430 --> 01:31:25,120
but this doesn't mean that they cannot

2739
01:31:29,350 --> 01:31:27,440
be described as turing machines

2740
01:31:31,189 --> 01:31:29,360
the turing machine is too general for

2741
01:31:33,750 --> 01:31:31,199
that thing basically

2742
01:31:35,189 --> 01:31:33,760
you're looking at a finite state machine

2743
01:31:36,629 --> 01:31:35,199
that can be used to compute

2744
01:31:39,750 --> 01:31:36,639
representations and

2745
01:31:39,990 --> 01:31:39,760
execute control functions and the brain

2746
01:31:42,709 --> 01:31:40,000
is

2747
01:31:44,310 --> 01:31:42,719
clearly in that category and what we can

2748
01:31:46,310 --> 01:31:44,320
show mathematically is that these

2749
01:31:48,229 --> 01:31:46,320
uh the different instances of that

2750
01:31:48,790 --> 01:31:48,239
category are equivalent to each other

2751
01:31:51,270 --> 01:31:48,800
which means

2752
01:31:52,550 --> 01:31:51,280
there are mappings you can take a

2753
01:31:55,990 --> 01:31:52,560
digital computer

2754
01:31:58,229 --> 01:31:56,000
and create a simulation of the brain

2755
01:31:59,750 --> 01:31:58,239
a virtual brain in that digital computer

2756
01:32:02,470 --> 01:31:59,760
that behaves in the same way

2757
01:32:03,350 --> 01:32:02,480
in principle and also in principle vice

2758
01:32:05,189 --> 01:32:03,360
versa

2759
01:32:07,270 --> 01:32:05,199
so you can create a simulation of a

2760
01:32:08,550 --> 01:32:07,280
digital computer in a brain

2761
01:32:11,189 --> 01:32:08,560
but it's this is much much more

2762
01:32:13,910 --> 01:32:11,199
difficult because our brain is

2763
01:32:15,910 --> 01:32:13,920
largely indeterministic so it's hard to

2764
01:32:18,149 --> 01:32:15,920
get enough determinism from the brain to

2765
01:32:19,110 --> 01:32:18,159
keep a model of a large digital computer

2766
01:32:21,590 --> 01:32:19,120
stable in it

2767
01:32:22,790 --> 01:32:21,600
and so we can only run relatively small

2768
01:32:25,830 --> 01:32:22,800
digital computers

2769
01:32:27,110 --> 01:32:25,840
in our brain but using external tools

2770
01:32:28,229 --> 01:32:27,120
for instance if we are allowed to use

2771
01:32:31,590 --> 01:32:28,239
pen and paper

2772
01:32:33,510 --> 01:32:31,600
we can use our uh analog

2773
01:32:35,990 --> 01:32:33,520
or our chaotic and independentistic

2774
01:32:37,669 --> 01:32:36,000
brains to run pretty large simulations

2775
01:32:39,189 --> 01:32:37,679
of digital computers

2776
01:32:40,790 --> 01:32:39,199
but externalizing the memory and

2777
01:32:42,470 --> 01:32:40,800
determinism

2778
01:32:44,310 --> 01:32:42,480
what about douglas hofstetter's idea of

2779
01:32:45,750 --> 01:32:44,320
consciousness the strange loop i'm not

2780
01:32:46,950 --> 01:32:45,760
sure if you're familiar with it but what

2781
01:32:48,310 --> 01:32:46,960
do you think of it

2782
01:32:50,310 --> 01:32:48,320
and do you mind explaining to the

2783
01:32:54,709 --> 01:32:50,320
audience the idea as far as you

2784
01:32:56,229 --> 01:32:54,719
understand it

2785
01:32:57,910 --> 01:32:56,239
i don't think that i can adequately

2786
01:33:01,350 --> 01:32:57,920
explain it uh

2787
01:33:07,350 --> 01:33:04,390
found about to a tradition of uh

2788
01:33:10,709 --> 01:33:07,360
computer science that is uh taking

2789
01:33:13,910 --> 01:33:12,070
talking about a property of the

2790
01:33:16,870 --> 01:33:13,920
languages that he still try to use

2791
01:33:17,350 --> 01:33:16,880
so he's not a proper computationalist he

2792
01:33:19,510 --> 01:33:17,360
is

2793
01:33:20,870 --> 01:33:19,520
using classical semantics to describe

2794
01:33:23,590 --> 01:33:20,880
computational system

2795
01:33:25,110 --> 01:33:23,600
and it leads to contradictions in his

2796
01:33:27,430 --> 01:33:25,120
descriptions

2797
01:33:30,070 --> 01:33:27,440
and i think that the strange loop is in

2798
01:33:33,030 --> 01:33:30,080
the class of these contradictions

2799
01:33:34,790 --> 01:33:33,040
and i i think that our consciousness is

2800
01:33:37,510 --> 01:33:34,800
not strange

2801
01:33:39,669 --> 01:33:37,520
as a loop it's there is some loop going

2802
01:33:41,270 --> 01:33:39,679
on but it's not a strange loop at all

2803
01:33:43,110 --> 01:33:41,280
it's a loop that goes between the

2804
01:33:45,030 --> 01:33:43,120
contents of the attention

2805
01:33:46,709 --> 01:33:45,040
and uh paying attention to the fact that

2806
01:33:48,390 --> 01:33:46,719
we still pay attention so we notice that

2807
01:33:50,790 --> 01:33:48,400
we haven't drifted off

2808
01:33:52,390 --> 01:33:50,800
so the strange loop sorry the strange

2809
01:33:53,590 --> 01:33:52,400
loop doesn't exist there's no such thing

2810
01:33:55,430 --> 01:33:53,600
as a strange loop because it's

2811
01:33:56,790 --> 01:33:55,440
predicated on false mathematics or at

2812
01:33:58,709 --> 01:33:56,800
mathematics that doesn't apply so

2813
01:34:00,629 --> 01:33:58,719
yes but i am not sure if i represent it

2814
01:34:00,950 --> 01:34:00,639
adequately and i would have to reread it

2815
01:34:03,430 --> 01:34:00,960
and

2816
01:34:04,070 --> 01:34:03,440
properly formulate it so i am reluctant

2817
01:34:06,310 --> 01:34:04,080
to

2818
01:34:07,910 --> 01:34:06,320
talk about it because i cannot properly

2819
01:34:08,310 --> 01:34:07,920
translate and define it here i would

2820
01:34:11,510 --> 01:34:08,320
have to

2821
01:34:13,430 --> 01:34:11,520
uh look it up again yeah no problem how

2822
01:34:14,870 --> 01:34:13,440
about the holonomic theory the holonomic

2823
01:34:16,790 --> 01:34:14,880
brain theory

2824
01:34:19,189 --> 01:34:16,800
oh it's a long time that i stumbled into

2825
01:34:21,189 --> 01:34:19,199
this one i didn't quite understand how

2826
01:34:23,110 --> 01:34:21,199
it was explaining consciousness so there

2827
01:34:27,189 --> 01:34:23,120
is a certain way in which

2828
01:34:28,709 --> 01:34:27,199
it is pointing at the hierarchies

2829
01:34:30,470 --> 01:34:28,719
of perception that we have and that's

2830
01:34:32,550 --> 01:34:30,480
accurate but

2831
01:34:35,510 --> 01:34:32,560
uh i i haven't understood how the

2832
01:34:37,830 --> 01:34:35,520
holonomics theory explains consciousness

2833
01:34:39,510 --> 01:34:37,840
in the sense that i i didn't see a

2834
01:34:42,390 --> 01:34:39,520
specification that i can implement and

2835
01:34:44,709 --> 01:34:42,400
end up with a conscious system

2836
01:34:45,750 --> 01:34:44,719
how about daniel dennett's idea of

2837
01:34:47,590 --> 01:34:45,760
consciousness

2838
01:34:50,070 --> 01:34:47,600
or at least his explanation is to how

2839
01:34:52,070 --> 01:34:50,080
consciousness arises and what it is

2840
01:34:53,590 --> 01:34:52,080
i think that danette as far as i

2841
01:34:55,590 --> 01:34:53,600
understand than it is

2842
01:34:56,709 --> 01:34:55,600
uh there's nothing wrong with what

2843
01:35:00,070 --> 01:34:56,719
danette says ever

2844
01:35:02,629 --> 01:35:00,080
the incredible person that that uh

2845
01:35:03,990 --> 01:35:02,639
so the things that i read from him i

2846
01:35:06,629 --> 01:35:04,000
don't have any objections

2847
01:35:08,470 --> 01:35:06,639
except that he seems to ignore the part

2848
01:35:11,430 --> 01:35:08,480
that most people struggle with

2849
01:35:12,629 --> 01:35:11,440
which is phenomenal experience so

2850
01:35:15,990 --> 01:35:12,639
basically he does

2851
01:35:19,189 --> 01:35:16,000
make fun of the people that explain

2852
01:35:20,870 --> 01:35:19,199
how mary proves that

2853
01:35:22,790 --> 01:35:20,880
machines cannot be conscious and he's

2854
01:35:24,950 --> 01:35:22,800
justified in making fun of them and

2855
01:35:27,030 --> 01:35:24,960
it's a very good read but he is not

2856
01:35:29,109 --> 01:35:27,040
going to convince any of these people

2857
01:35:30,390 --> 01:35:29,119
because he is not deconstructing the

2858
01:35:32,390 --> 01:35:30,400
thing that they are struggling with

2859
01:35:35,270 --> 01:35:32,400
which is phenomenal experience

2860
01:35:36,950 --> 01:35:35,280
he is mostly seems to be ignoring it so

2861
01:35:39,990 --> 01:35:36,960
it's incomplete it's correct

2862
01:35:41,590 --> 01:35:40,000
but incomplete i yeah i suspect that he

2863
01:35:42,149 --> 01:35:41,600
doesn't think that there's that much to

2864
01:35:44,149 --> 01:35:42,159
explain

2865
01:35:45,750 --> 01:35:44,159
because he uh may not have that much

2866
01:35:47,430 --> 01:35:45,760
phenomenal experience he probably has a

2867
01:35:49,350 --> 01:35:47,440
fantasia

2868
01:35:50,470 --> 01:35:49,360
only speculating here it could be that

2869
01:35:53,350 --> 01:35:50,480
basically uh

2870
01:35:54,830 --> 01:35:53,360
then its mind is so conceptual that he

2871
01:35:56,390 --> 01:35:54,840
doesn't think that there is that much to

2872
01:35:58,470 --> 01:35:56,400
explain

2873
01:36:00,229 --> 01:35:58,480
and there are people which are rarely

2874
01:36:02,310 --> 01:36:00,239
visiting the conceptual realm

2875
01:36:03,510 --> 01:36:02,320
and they make the have the experience

2876
01:36:05,910 --> 01:36:03,520
that the this

2877
01:36:07,990 --> 01:36:05,920
logical language is unfit to describe

2878
01:36:10,229 --> 01:36:08,000
anything of consequence in in

2879
01:36:12,229 --> 01:36:10,239
real everyday life so how could it

2880
01:36:12,790 --> 01:36:12,239
explain something that is so fundamental

2881
01:36:14,950 --> 01:36:12,800
as

2882
01:36:16,550 --> 01:36:14,960
a phenomenal experience right you need

2883
01:36:19,990 --> 01:36:16,560
art to describe that

2884
01:36:21,669 --> 01:36:20,000
and uh danette is so far removed in the

2885
01:36:23,270 --> 01:36:21,679
way that he speaks talks

2886
01:36:24,790 --> 01:36:23,280
things operates that his own mind

2887
01:36:26,990 --> 01:36:24,800
operates that it's

2888
01:36:28,229 --> 01:36:27,000
very hard i think to see for the

2889
01:36:30,070 --> 01:36:28,239
phenomenologists

2890
01:36:31,590 --> 01:36:30,080
how dennet is actually talking about the

2891
01:36:33,910 --> 01:36:31,600
same thing

2892
01:36:35,590 --> 01:36:33,920
but uh having said that i do think that

2893
01:36:37,510 --> 01:36:35,600
danette is right

2894
01:36:39,109 --> 01:36:37,520
it's just he is not giving us a

2895
01:36:41,030 --> 01:36:39,119
specification that we can implement at

2896
01:36:42,709 --> 01:36:41,040
this point then again he's a philosopher

2897
01:36:44,870 --> 01:36:42,719
so he's not uh dealing with the

2898
01:36:48,550 --> 01:36:44,880
specifications very much

2899
01:36:50,470 --> 01:36:48,560
uh and so when i read done it i

2900
01:36:53,189 --> 01:36:50,480
i don't object to anything that i read

2901
01:36:54,870 --> 01:36:53,199
so far but uh i also learned very little

2902
01:36:57,030 --> 01:36:54,880
it's basically trivially true but it

2903
01:36:59,669 --> 01:36:57,040
says

2904
01:37:01,109 --> 01:36:59,679
how about the sensory motor theory so uh

2905
01:37:02,709 --> 01:37:01,119
what does it mean to have a sensory

2906
01:37:04,310 --> 01:37:02,719
motor theory of consciousness i suspect

2907
01:37:06,790 --> 01:37:04,320
that there are a number of

2908
01:37:07,830 --> 01:37:06,800
people that would refer to sensory motor

2909
01:37:10,950 --> 01:37:07,840
integration

2910
01:37:14,390 --> 01:37:10,960
as at the core of consciousness and

2911
01:37:16,390 --> 01:37:14,400
you could say that there is crucially a

2912
01:37:19,990 --> 01:37:16,400
notion of agency that results

2913
01:37:22,390 --> 01:37:20,000
from performing actions

2914
01:37:24,629 --> 01:37:22,400
and sensing the result of the actions

2915
01:37:25,830 --> 01:37:24,639
and making sense of the relationship

2916
01:37:30,229 --> 01:37:25,840
between

2917
01:37:35,430 --> 01:37:33,270
when i was confronted with this notion

2918
01:37:36,629 --> 01:37:35,440
i i thought well how do you know that

2919
01:37:39,750 --> 01:37:36,639
there is action

2920
01:37:42,950 --> 01:37:39,760
what exists is eventually just a notion

2921
01:37:46,470 --> 01:37:44,709
have you heard of bergson's theory of

2922
01:37:48,870 --> 01:37:46,480
consciousness

2923
01:37:50,390 --> 01:37:48,880
wait let's let's go yeah sorry sorry

2924
01:37:50,950 --> 01:37:50,400
let's continue with the sensory motor

2925
01:37:53,430 --> 01:37:50,960
thing if

2926
01:37:54,550 --> 01:37:53,440
you're still yeah no i apologize i took

2927
01:37:58,950 --> 01:37:54,560
your pauses

2928
01:38:01,270 --> 01:37:58,960
as as you were finished no no um

2929
01:38:02,390 --> 01:38:01,280
my bad by the way just in case i'm a bit

2930
01:38:04,550 --> 01:38:02,400
loopy i

2931
01:38:06,229 --> 01:38:04,560
i haven't had enough i haven't had sleep

2932
01:38:08,709 --> 01:38:06,239
proper sleep in like three days and i've

2933
01:38:09,590 --> 01:38:08,719
only eaten one meal in 72 hours

2934
01:38:11,990 --> 01:38:09,600
approximately

2935
01:38:15,030 --> 01:38:12,000
because i'm in the middle of a fast so

2936
01:38:18,950 --> 01:38:15,040
if i seem a bit drowsy or

2937
01:38:21,430 --> 01:38:18,960
or slow please forgive me

2938
01:38:23,030 --> 01:38:21,440
i have no difficulty forgiving you okay

2939
01:38:24,310 --> 01:38:23,040
why don't you continue about the sensory

2940
01:38:26,870 --> 01:38:24,320
motor

2941
01:38:28,950 --> 01:38:26,880
uh so i suspect that we discover our

2942
01:38:29,990 --> 01:38:28,960
body the motor aspect only through the

2943
01:38:32,470 --> 01:38:30,000
senses so it's

2944
01:38:34,390 --> 01:38:32,480
basically we discover the control

2945
01:38:38,070 --> 01:38:34,400
architect architecture we discover

2946
01:38:40,870 --> 01:38:38,080
that there is a relationship between

2947
01:38:41,430 --> 01:38:40,880
the environment and certain states which

2948
01:38:43,510 --> 01:38:41,440
we

2949
01:38:45,430 --> 01:38:43,520
notice as being intentional states and

2950
01:38:47,350 --> 01:38:45,440
the body that is the instrument of

2951
01:38:49,270 --> 01:38:47,360
translating intentional states into

2952
01:38:50,870 --> 01:38:49,280
changes in the environment and this

2953
01:38:54,070 --> 01:38:50,880
control hierarchy of

2954
01:38:57,590 --> 01:38:57,109
originating and motivation and needs and

2955
01:39:01,030 --> 01:38:57,600
then

2956
01:39:01,590 --> 01:39:01,040
this leading to the initiation of motor

2957
01:39:07,590 --> 01:39:01,600
actions

2958
01:39:09,669 --> 01:39:07,600
or mental operations and then as a

2959
01:39:10,790 --> 01:39:09,679
result to changes in the world in the

2960
01:39:14,229 --> 01:39:10,800
perceived

2961
01:39:16,550 --> 01:39:14,239
mental world and this again

2962
01:39:18,149 --> 01:39:16,560
leading to changes in our needs and

2963
01:39:20,310 --> 01:39:18,159
motivations and so on

2964
01:39:22,470 --> 01:39:20,320
this this discovery of the loop is only

2965
01:39:23,189 --> 01:39:22,480
possible because we have the entire loop

2966
01:39:26,470 --> 01:39:23,199
given

2967
01:39:28,870 --> 01:39:26,480
if any element of this loop was missing

2968
01:39:29,669 --> 01:39:28,880
we would not be able to discover our own

2969
01:39:31,910 --> 01:39:29,679
agency

2970
01:39:33,189 --> 01:39:31,920
right we only discover our bodies as

2971
01:39:35,430 --> 01:39:33,199
being that instrument

2972
01:39:37,030 --> 01:39:35,440
we wouldn't discover that we have a body

2973
01:39:39,350 --> 01:39:37,040
outside of volitional states and

2974
01:39:40,950 --> 01:39:39,360
environment we wouldn't discover

2975
01:39:43,030 --> 01:39:40,960
volitional states

2976
01:39:44,070 --> 01:39:43,040
in the absence of a body and the

2977
01:39:46,550 --> 01:39:44,080
environment

2978
01:39:47,350 --> 01:39:46,560
and the body could uh also be a mental

2979
01:39:48,790 --> 01:39:47,360
body that

2980
01:39:50,390 --> 01:39:48,800
is able to perform mathematical

2981
01:39:51,030 --> 01:39:50,400
operations that's probably sufficient

2982
01:39:53,910 --> 01:39:51,040
for this

2983
01:39:55,590 --> 01:39:53,920
but you will need to have to see some

2984
01:39:58,790 --> 01:39:55,600
outcome of your actions

2985
01:39:59,669 --> 01:39:58,800
and something that some way to affect

2986
01:40:01,430 --> 01:39:59,679
these outcomes

2987
01:40:04,310 --> 01:40:01,440
to arrive at the notion of your own

2988
01:40:05,590 --> 01:40:04,320
agency and the type of intelligence that

2989
01:40:08,870 --> 01:40:05,600
makes us distinct

2990
01:40:09,830 --> 01:40:08,880
is the ability to conceptualize

2991
01:40:12,550 --> 01:40:09,840
ourselves as an

2992
01:40:15,030 --> 01:40:12,560
agent embedded into the universe our the

2993
01:40:16,870 --> 01:40:15,040
generality of our intelligence is given

2994
01:40:18,149 --> 01:40:16,880
by us having to solve control problems

2995
01:40:19,910 --> 01:40:18,159
that are so general

2996
01:40:22,149 --> 01:40:19,920
that we need to model ourselves that we

2997
01:40:23,590 --> 01:40:22,159
need to reverse engineer us right

2998
01:40:24,629 --> 01:40:23,600
imagine you start out with the

2999
01:40:28,629 --> 01:40:24,639
thermostat

3000
01:40:30,390 --> 01:40:28,639
controls the temperature in a room

3001
01:40:33,109 --> 01:40:30,400
based on a measurement of the

3002
01:40:35,910 --> 01:40:33,119
temperature and a control impulse that

3003
01:40:38,310 --> 01:40:35,920
turns a heating element on and off and

3004
01:40:40,950 --> 01:40:38,320
now imagine that this uh

3005
01:40:43,030 --> 01:40:40,960
thermometer is very close to the heating

3006
01:40:45,030 --> 01:40:43,040
element so there is some feedback

3007
01:40:46,550 --> 01:40:45,040
between the heating element and the

3008
01:40:48,790 --> 01:40:46,560
measurement that you make

3009
01:40:50,310 --> 01:40:48,800
and if you want to get the temperature

3010
01:40:51,910 --> 01:40:50,320
in the room right and don't want to run

3011
01:40:53,590 --> 01:40:51,920
into viral fluctuations

3012
01:40:55,030 --> 01:40:53,600
you might need to have a second order

3013
01:40:56,070 --> 01:40:55,040
control loop and the second order

3014
01:40:58,629 --> 01:40:56,080
control loop

3015
01:41:00,629 --> 01:40:58,639
is basically correcting the measurement

3016
01:41:03,350 --> 01:41:00,639
that you're making with your sensor

3017
01:41:03,990 --> 01:41:03,360
for the activity of the heating element

3018
01:41:06,149 --> 01:41:04,000
which means

3019
01:41:07,189 --> 01:41:06,159
now your second order control loop will

3020
01:41:09,430 --> 01:41:07,199
have to uh

3021
01:41:11,669 --> 01:41:09,440
implement a model of the interaction

3022
01:41:14,390 --> 01:41:11,679
between heating element and heater

3023
01:41:14,870 --> 01:41:14,400
and it might have to implement a model

3024
01:41:18,070 --> 01:41:14,880
of

3025
01:41:19,669 --> 01:41:18,080
how much this contributes to the

3026
01:41:21,270 --> 01:41:19,679
temperature in the vicinity

3027
01:41:23,109 --> 01:41:21,280
and the second order control group is

3028
01:41:26,149 --> 01:41:23,119
what's conscious in this example

3029
01:41:27,750 --> 01:41:26,159
no it's just a second order model no

3030
01:41:30,390 --> 01:41:27,760
it's uh so basically we are now looking

3031
01:41:31,109 --> 01:41:30,400
at a nested system a nested cybernetic

3032
01:41:33,990 --> 01:41:31,119
loop

3033
01:41:35,510 --> 01:41:34,000
and if you have a room where you for

3034
01:41:37,189 --> 01:41:35,520
instance have a changing volume of

3035
01:41:38,790 --> 01:41:37,199
air because you sometimes open the

3036
01:41:40,229 --> 01:41:38,800
vendor or not

3037
01:41:42,149 --> 01:41:40,239
you might need to have a third order

3038
01:41:44,470 --> 01:41:42,159
control loop that is now

3039
01:41:46,149 --> 01:41:44,480
measuring how the heating element is

3040
01:41:47,430 --> 01:41:46,159
changing the temperature of the room

3041
01:41:49,590 --> 01:41:47,440
depending on that third

3042
01:41:50,870 --> 01:41:49,600
hidden variable and you try to guess at

3043
01:41:53,109 --> 01:41:50,880
this hidden variable

3044
01:41:54,629 --> 01:41:53,119
and now if you also have temperature

3045
01:41:56,070 --> 01:41:54,639
fluctuations on the outside because

3046
01:41:57,590 --> 01:41:56,080
maybe you have a change of season and

3047
01:42:00,310 --> 01:41:57,600
the air that comes in

3048
01:42:01,830 --> 01:42:00,320
uh and out now that might require more

3049
01:42:03,990 --> 01:42:01,840
complicated loops right

3050
01:42:05,750 --> 01:42:04,000
and eventually you will also need to

3051
01:42:08,550 --> 01:42:05,760
have a model that describes

3052
01:42:08,950 --> 01:42:08,560
the uh sensitivity of the heating sensor

3053
01:42:11,189 --> 01:42:08,960
and

3054
01:42:12,470 --> 01:42:11,199
the inaccuracies of the heating sensor

3055
01:42:15,109 --> 01:42:12,480
and maybe

3056
01:42:16,870 --> 01:42:15,119
the at certain temperatures the switch

3057
01:42:19,830 --> 01:42:16,880
doesn't operate at the same

3058
01:42:21,350 --> 01:42:19,840
rate as it would uh happen at uh your

3059
01:42:25,030 --> 01:42:21,360
default temperature right

3060
01:42:27,669 --> 01:42:25,040
so you need to allow for the

3061
01:42:29,270 --> 01:42:27,679
quirks of your own control architecture

3062
01:42:31,030 --> 01:42:29,280
and this means that at some point the

3063
01:42:32,070 --> 01:42:31,040
control loops have to model the system

3064
01:42:35,430 --> 01:42:32,080
itself

3065
01:42:37,189 --> 01:42:35,440
so you get to a system that is modeling

3066
01:42:39,109 --> 01:42:37,199
its own place in the environment its own

3067
01:42:40,709 --> 01:42:39,119
relationship to the environment

3068
01:42:42,310 --> 01:42:40,719
consciousness is not yet related to this

3069
01:42:44,229 --> 01:42:42,320
consciousness is a tool

3070
01:42:46,310 --> 01:42:44,239
to discover this imagine you have this

3071
01:42:46,709 --> 01:42:46,320
vast multitude of possible measurements

3072
01:42:48,629 --> 01:42:46,719
and

3073
01:42:50,229 --> 01:42:48,639
possible hidden states that you cannot

3074
01:42:51,189 --> 01:42:50,239
directly measure but you have to

3075
01:42:54,470 --> 01:42:51,199
construct

3076
01:42:56,470 --> 01:42:54,480
to explain the data that you're

3077
01:42:57,830 --> 01:42:56,480
measuring the relationship between them

3078
01:42:59,910 --> 01:42:57,840
and because you have this vast

3079
01:43:00,950 --> 01:42:59,920
conflagration of possible relationships

3080
01:43:02,709 --> 01:43:00,960
between them

3081
01:43:04,470 --> 01:43:02,719
you cannot just do a blind search

3082
01:43:06,229 --> 01:43:04,480
instead you need to have some kind of a

3083
01:43:08,390 --> 01:43:06,239
directed search something that is

3084
01:43:09,669 --> 01:43:08,400
structuring your search and telling you

3085
01:43:11,430 --> 01:43:09,679
which of these

3086
01:43:13,270 --> 01:43:11,440
parameters you should single out and

3087
01:43:14,950 --> 01:43:13,280
relate to each other and uh

3088
01:43:17,030 --> 01:43:14,960
try to change the relationship see what

3089
01:43:18,870 --> 01:43:17,040
the outcome is and so on and that

3090
01:43:20,629 --> 01:43:18,880
is the purpose of consciousness is the

3091
01:43:24,310 --> 01:43:20,639
direction of attention

3092
01:43:26,149 --> 01:43:24,320
over this multitude of possible states

3093
01:43:27,430 --> 01:43:26,159
okay so the purpose of consciousness is

3094
01:43:28,790 --> 01:43:27,440
the direction of attention

3095
01:43:30,070 --> 01:43:28,800
but also at the same time you said that

3096
01:43:30,550 --> 01:43:30,080
it was the story that the brain tells

3097
01:43:32,470 --> 01:43:30,560
itself

3098
01:43:34,470 --> 01:43:32,480
so in this thermostat example what is

3099
01:43:36,310 --> 01:43:34,480
the story that's being told

3100
01:43:38,149 --> 01:43:36,320
so the story that could be told about

3101
01:43:40,070 --> 01:43:38,159
the thermostat would be that

3102
01:43:41,270 --> 01:43:40,080
there is this thermostat or a measuring

3103
01:43:43,830 --> 01:43:41,280
system

3104
01:43:45,750 --> 01:43:43,840
that is regulating a parameter in in the

3105
01:43:46,709 --> 01:43:45,760
world that relates to other parameters

3106
01:43:48,390 --> 01:43:46,719
in the world

3107
01:43:50,870 --> 01:43:48,400
for instance volume of air outside

3108
01:43:51,750 --> 01:43:50,880
temperature frequency at which a window

3109
01:43:53,510 --> 01:43:51,760
is being opened

3110
01:43:54,950 --> 01:43:53,520
maybe other agents which open and close

3111
01:43:56,470 --> 01:43:54,960
the windows uh

3112
01:43:58,229 --> 01:43:56,480
maybe other agents that change my

3113
01:43:59,590 --> 01:43:58,239
settings depending on what's happening

3114
01:44:01,750 --> 01:43:59,600
and so on right and the more

3115
01:44:03,590 --> 01:44:01,760
data you can integrate the more complete

3116
01:44:05,510 --> 01:44:03,600
your model of the universe will get

3117
01:44:07,030 --> 01:44:05,520
the more parameters of the universe you

3118
01:44:08,950 --> 01:44:07,040
will have to integrate

3119
01:44:11,750 --> 01:44:08,960
and at some point you get to a model

3120
01:44:14,950 --> 01:44:11,760
that is complete in a sense that

3121
01:44:16,870 --> 01:44:14,960
you have a smaller set of causal laws

3122
01:44:18,550 --> 01:44:16,880
basically physical laws that are

3123
01:44:20,070 --> 01:44:18,560
sufficient to explain the conditions of

3124
01:44:22,310 --> 01:44:20,080
your existence

3125
01:44:24,709 --> 01:44:22,320
and the basic uh principle that explains

3126
01:44:26,470 --> 01:44:24,719
how everything relates to everything how

3127
01:44:28,229 --> 01:44:26,480
functions are being computed how a

3128
01:44:29,830 --> 01:44:28,239
system can exist in the universe how a

3129
01:44:32,229 --> 01:44:29,840
universe can be generated

3130
01:44:34,149 --> 01:44:32,239
and how a system can change itself as a

3131
01:44:36,310 --> 01:44:34,159
relationship to that that is computation

3132
01:44:38,950 --> 01:44:36,320
so computation gives you a language to

3133
01:44:40,629 --> 01:44:38,960
talk about first principles

3134
01:44:42,070 --> 01:44:40,639
and what is intelligence in this is it

3135
01:44:43,030 --> 01:44:42,080
just the ability to model for the

3136
01:44:44,229 --> 01:44:43,040
generation of

3137
01:44:46,550 --> 01:44:44,239
more models whether or not they're

3138
01:44:48,149 --> 01:44:46,560
predictive or whether or not they fit

3139
01:44:49,669 --> 01:44:48,159
yeah what's a call intelligence the

3140
01:44:51,830 --> 01:44:49,679
ability to make models

3141
01:44:53,830 --> 01:44:51,840
but of course it this makes sense in the

3142
01:44:55,590 --> 01:44:53,840
context of a control task usually so

3143
01:44:56,709 --> 01:44:55,600
there is a certain control task that is

3144
01:44:58,470 --> 01:44:56,719
being fulfilled

3145
01:44:59,750 --> 01:44:58,480
and the intelligence of the thermostat

3146
01:45:01,910 --> 01:44:59,760
would be

3147
01:45:04,070 --> 01:45:01,920
measured by the complexity of the models

3148
01:45:07,030 --> 01:45:04,080
that the thermostat can build

3149
01:45:08,790 --> 01:45:07,040
as a result of the interaction between

3150
01:45:11,030 --> 01:45:08,800
the data and the measurements

3151
01:45:12,709 --> 01:45:11,040
and its actions is there a relationship

3152
01:45:14,390 --> 01:45:12,719
between intelligence and consciousness

3153
01:45:16,390 --> 01:45:14,400
such that the higher your iq as an

3154
01:45:18,229 --> 01:45:16,400
individual let's say as a human you are

3155
01:45:21,750 --> 01:45:18,239
more conscious

3156
01:45:25,270 --> 01:45:21,760
i would say that consciousness is a

3157
01:45:26,629 --> 01:45:25,280
solution for creating certain types of

3158
01:45:29,030 --> 01:45:26,639
models

3159
01:45:30,629 --> 01:45:29,040
so it's basically an aspect of a certain

3160
01:45:32,629 --> 01:45:30,639
class of algorithms

3161
01:45:33,990 --> 01:45:32,639
of algorithms that require the direction

3162
01:45:37,430 --> 01:45:34,000
of attention

3163
01:45:40,229 --> 01:45:37,440
in a particular way and so

3164
01:45:41,510 --> 01:45:40,239
the fact that we can recall having

3165
01:45:43,430 --> 01:45:41,520
attended to something

3166
01:45:45,189 --> 01:45:43,440
while being something that was attending

3167
01:45:46,950 --> 01:45:45,199
and while being aware of the fact that

3168
01:45:47,910 --> 01:45:46,960
we were attending instead of drifting

3169
01:45:50,950 --> 01:45:47,920
off

3170
01:45:52,229 --> 01:45:50,960
uh right this is what determines our

3171
01:45:54,550 --> 01:45:52,239
type of consciousness

3172
01:45:55,910 --> 01:45:54,560
and it's not necessarily the case that

3173
01:45:58,550 --> 01:45:55,920
every system

3174
01:46:00,149 --> 01:45:58,560
has all these degrees of freedom or

3175
01:46:01,510 --> 01:46:00,159
needs to have these degrees of freedom

3176
01:46:03,510 --> 01:46:01,520
to be able to solve

3177
01:46:04,950 --> 01:46:03,520
the same problems as we do because we

3178
01:46:06,870 --> 01:46:04,960
could just fixate these things

3179
01:46:08,390 --> 01:46:06,880
maybe we can have an attentional system

3180
01:46:10,470 --> 01:46:08,400
that is itself unconscious

3181
01:46:12,629 --> 01:46:10,480
when you say to solve the problems are

3182
01:46:15,270 --> 01:46:12,639
you referring to just propagation of

3183
01:46:18,310 --> 01:46:15,280
existence that they don't die

3184
01:46:20,390 --> 01:46:18,320
no our death is unrelated to this our

3185
01:46:22,470 --> 01:46:20,400
death is a concept that exists it's an

3186
01:46:24,310 --> 01:46:22,480
idea that our word line is broken in a

3187
01:46:26,870 --> 01:46:24,320
certain way that it ends

3188
01:46:28,149 --> 01:46:26,880
and we are not continuous in the first

3189
01:46:29,990 --> 01:46:28,159
place our idea of

3190
01:46:31,910 --> 01:46:30,000
existing in a continuous fashion is a

3191
01:46:33,189 --> 01:46:31,920
construction that we have over our

3192
01:46:34,870 --> 01:46:33,199
memories to explain

3193
01:46:37,590 --> 01:46:34,880
memories that we seem to have of past

3194
01:46:42,550 --> 01:46:41,030
sorry continue continue whether three

3195
01:46:45,590 --> 01:46:42,560
will come in

3196
01:46:47,109 --> 01:46:45,600
free will is a representation isn't

3197
01:46:50,149 --> 01:46:47,119
envisioned in the system that

3198
01:46:53,189 --> 01:46:50,159
it's made a decision and the decision is

3199
01:46:55,109 --> 01:46:53,199
being made on the best understanding of

3200
01:46:58,390 --> 01:46:55,119
what's correct

3201
01:47:00,310 --> 01:46:58,400
and a free will is uh

3202
01:47:02,550 --> 01:47:00,320
it's basically it's uh the out flow of

3203
01:47:03,109 --> 01:47:02,560
this control task it's the outflow of

3204
01:47:05,990 --> 01:47:03,119
the

3205
01:47:06,870 --> 01:47:06,000
control uh algorithm being executed in

3206
01:47:08,790 --> 01:47:06,880
the right way

3207
01:47:10,470 --> 01:47:08,800
the opposite to free will is not

3208
01:47:12,550 --> 01:47:10,480
determinism

3209
01:47:14,470 --> 01:47:12,560
if you are indeterministic you cannot

3210
01:47:16,310 --> 01:47:14,480
have free will if you behave randomly

3211
01:47:19,990 --> 01:47:16,320
there is no will involved

3212
01:47:23,109 --> 01:47:20,000
right it's just random and the opposite

3213
01:47:25,030 --> 01:47:23,119
to free will is also not coercion

3214
01:47:26,550 --> 01:47:25,040
because you are deciding that you are

3215
01:47:28,149 --> 01:47:26,560
giving in to the coercion

3216
01:47:30,790 --> 01:47:28,159
you wouldn't need to be coerced if you

3217
01:47:32,629 --> 01:47:30,800
wouldn't have a degree of freedom

3218
01:47:33,910 --> 01:47:32,639
but the opposite to free will is

3219
01:47:35,590 --> 01:47:33,920
compulsion

3220
01:47:37,030 --> 01:47:35,600
it's basically when you do something

3221
01:47:38,629 --> 01:47:37,040
despite knowing better

3222
01:47:40,390 --> 01:47:38,639
the opposite of free will is compulsion

3223
01:47:43,030 --> 01:47:40,400
as well as randomness

3224
01:47:43,910 --> 01:47:43,040
uh so uh randomness is the absence of

3225
01:47:45,669 --> 01:47:43,920
will at all

3226
01:47:48,709 --> 01:47:45,679
right the system that is random has no

3227
01:47:50,470 --> 01:47:48,719
will so the will cannot be free or not

3228
01:47:52,550 --> 01:47:50,480
but so we have to look at the opposite

3229
01:47:54,149 --> 01:47:52,560
of the freedom and the opposite of the

3230
01:47:55,590 --> 01:47:54,159
freedom is not the coercion it's the

3231
01:48:00,070 --> 01:47:55,600
compulsion

3232
01:48:01,109 --> 01:48:00,080
means that you have a model of what you

3233
01:48:03,830 --> 01:48:01,119
should be doing

3234
01:48:05,590 --> 01:48:03,840
but you don't find yourself acting on it

3235
01:48:07,270 --> 01:48:05,600
you find yourself acting on something

3236
01:48:09,270 --> 01:48:07,280
else you are acting on based on some

3237
01:48:11,669 --> 01:48:09,280
impulse or some addiction

3238
01:48:15,189 --> 01:48:11,679
and that is basically the true

3239
01:48:19,189 --> 01:48:17,430
but it's important to realize that

3240
01:48:22,070 --> 01:48:19,199
freedom is not an absolute

3241
01:48:23,590 --> 01:48:22,080
notion in the physical sense it's it's a

3242
01:48:24,629 --> 01:48:23,600
reference that we make to certain

3243
01:48:27,350 --> 01:48:24,639
internal states

3244
01:48:30,229 --> 01:48:27,360
so when i refer to my own decisions as

3245
01:48:32,629 --> 01:48:30,239
being the result of my free will

3246
01:48:34,070 --> 01:48:32,639
depends on the context in which i use

3247
01:48:35,669 --> 01:48:34,080
this and when i talk about the

3248
01:48:37,750 --> 01:48:35,679
experiential context

3249
01:48:39,189 --> 01:48:37,760
experience by will is free when i have

3250
01:48:42,550 --> 01:48:39,199
the impression

3251
01:48:44,550 --> 01:48:42,560
that i made the decision based on

3252
01:48:45,990 --> 01:48:44,560
parameters that are the right ones that

3253
01:48:47,510 --> 01:48:46,000
are in the proper order

3254
01:48:49,750 --> 01:48:47,520
with respect to the control structures

3255
01:48:52,229 --> 01:48:49,760
that my mind currently implements

3256
01:48:54,310 --> 01:48:52,239
and not because of uh some glitch in the

3257
01:48:55,350 --> 01:48:54,320
matrix of some glitch in the system that

3258
01:48:58,709 --> 01:48:55,360
implements me

3259
01:48:59,430 --> 01:48:58,719
or uh of some erroneous programming or

3260
01:49:02,470 --> 01:48:59,440
some

3261
01:49:03,590 --> 01:49:02,480
uh external force that is spreading in

3262
01:49:05,830 --> 01:49:03,600
my mind

3263
01:49:06,870 --> 01:49:05,840
so uh when people have the impression

3264
01:49:09,109 --> 01:49:06,880
that they inter

3265
01:49:11,669 --> 01:49:09,119
act uh out of a compulsion for instance

3266
01:49:14,870 --> 01:49:11,679
because they say first and have anorexia

3267
01:49:16,629 --> 01:49:14,880
they might decide to

3268
01:49:18,229 --> 01:49:16,639
or bulimia they might decide not to

3269
01:49:19,830 --> 01:49:18,239
throw up after eating but they cannot

3270
01:49:22,310 --> 01:49:19,840
help themselves they just have this

3271
01:49:23,270 --> 01:49:22,320
enormous urge to throw up or make

3272
01:49:24,629 --> 01:49:23,280
themselves throw up

3273
01:49:26,790 --> 01:49:24,639
there's nothing that they can do about

3274
01:49:28,870 --> 01:49:26,800
this and it's a very disturbing

3275
01:49:30,470 --> 01:49:28,880
experience because it impinges on your

3276
01:49:31,109 --> 01:49:30,480
freedom there is one thing that you want

3277
01:49:32,790 --> 01:49:31,119
to do

3278
01:49:34,550 --> 01:49:32,800
and another thing that you find yourself

3279
01:49:36,470 --> 01:49:34,560
to be doing

3280
01:49:39,030 --> 01:49:36,480
and this is a very big existential

3281
01:49:41,109 --> 01:49:39,040
disturbance that happens in that case

3282
01:49:42,550 --> 01:49:41,119
okay so freedom is like you have a model

3283
01:49:44,310 --> 01:49:42,560
then you execute on the model based on

3284
01:49:47,030 --> 01:49:44,320
the parameters and it's salutary and

3285
01:49:52,550 --> 01:49:49,669
what does positive mean that it fits

3286
01:49:56,950 --> 01:49:54,950
it typically does right so imagine you

3287
01:50:00,229 --> 01:49:56,960
have your frodo in

3288
01:50:02,229 --> 01:50:00,239
your middle earth world and it's a story

3289
01:50:03,910 --> 01:50:02,239
and we imagine we implement this as

3290
01:50:05,990 --> 01:50:03,920
a computer simulation like a minecraft

3291
01:50:06,790 --> 01:50:06,000
middle earth and you have your photo

3292
01:50:08,550 --> 01:50:06,800
agent in there

3293
01:50:10,390 --> 01:50:08,560
and the photo agent is acting based on

3294
01:50:13,750 --> 01:50:10,400
models that photo is creating

3295
01:50:16,070 --> 01:50:13,760
then photo would probably conceptualize

3296
01:50:17,430 --> 01:50:16,080
his actions as being the result of his

3297
01:50:20,470 --> 01:50:17,440
own free will

3298
01:50:22,070 --> 01:50:20,480
if he has the impression that

3299
01:50:23,990 --> 01:50:22,080
everything happened in the way that it

3300
01:50:25,990 --> 01:50:24,000
was supposed to in his own mind

3301
01:50:27,430 --> 01:50:26,000
that is he is perceiving certain things

3302
01:50:28,790 --> 01:50:27,440
there are certain things he wants as a

3303
01:50:31,589 --> 01:50:28,800
result of his

3304
01:50:34,149 --> 01:50:31,599
physiological social and cognitive needs

3305
01:50:35,990 --> 01:50:34,159
and spiritual transcendental needs maybe

3306
01:50:37,430 --> 01:50:36,000
which i think may be understood as a

3307
01:50:40,470 --> 01:50:37,440
class of social needs

3308
01:50:42,070 --> 01:50:40,480
and as a result he is doing certain

3309
01:50:43,589 --> 01:50:42,080
things he's making certain decisions

3310
01:50:45,510 --> 01:50:43,599
because they increase the likelihood

3311
01:50:47,589 --> 01:50:45,520
that he is reaping the anticipated

3312
01:50:49,910 --> 01:50:47,599
rewards with respect to his needs

3313
01:50:52,310 --> 01:50:49,920
and if this all happens in the proper

3314
01:50:55,030 --> 01:50:52,320
order then his mind will represent

3315
01:50:56,070 --> 01:50:55,040
i wanted this the intention is being

3316
01:50:58,629 --> 01:50:56,080
represented

3317
01:51:00,709 --> 01:50:58,639
and i wanted this because of a mechanism

3318
01:51:01,750 --> 01:51:00,719
that was only determined but what by

3319
01:51:03,350 --> 01:51:01,760
what i needed

3320
01:51:05,990 --> 01:51:03,360
and what i consider to be the right

3321
01:51:08,310 --> 01:51:06,000
thing which defines my own freedom

3322
01:51:10,790 --> 01:51:08,320
so it's in some sense a paradox the more

3323
01:51:13,030 --> 01:51:10,800
you know what you ought to be doing

3324
01:51:14,870 --> 01:51:13,040
the more agency you have and the more

3325
01:51:16,310 --> 01:51:14,880
freedom you have subjectively

3326
01:51:18,950 --> 01:51:16,320
but the fewer degrees of freedom you

3327
01:51:19,589 --> 01:51:18,960
have and the less you know what you are

3328
01:51:21,430 --> 01:51:19,599
doing

3329
01:51:23,589 --> 01:51:21,440
the more degrees of freedom you have but

3330
01:51:25,109 --> 01:51:23,599
the less do your actions mean anything

3331
01:51:30,629 --> 01:51:25,119
which means you have less objective

3332
01:51:34,390 --> 01:51:32,229
so is free will a story that we tell

3333
01:51:35,910 --> 01:51:34,400
ourselves part of that it's a model

3334
01:51:37,030 --> 01:51:35,920
right in a sense it's a story that we

3335
01:51:38,950 --> 01:51:37,040
tell ourselves

3336
01:51:40,870 --> 01:51:38,960
but it's not we who do this it's the

3337
01:51:43,030 --> 01:51:40,880
mind who tells it to the self

3338
01:51:45,189 --> 01:51:43,040
it's upstream from the self your mind

3339
01:51:49,109 --> 01:51:45,199
cannot control what experiences

3340
01:51:50,310 --> 01:51:49,119
at its own will except in certain states

3341
01:51:52,310 --> 01:51:50,320
at one point you mentioned that the

3342
01:51:53,990 --> 01:51:52,320
dalai lama can

3343
01:51:55,750 --> 01:51:54,000
effectively live forever in the sense

3344
01:51:57,350 --> 01:51:55,760
that he identifies with the government

3345
01:52:00,229 --> 01:51:57,360
and as long as that government

3346
01:52:02,470 --> 01:52:00,239
is instantiated and not dissolved then

3347
01:52:04,390 --> 01:52:02,480
he lives in some way shape or form

3348
01:52:05,830 --> 01:52:04,400
okay i didn't quite get that do you mind

3349
01:52:08,709 --> 01:52:05,840
explaining what do you mean that he

3350
01:52:09,910 --> 01:52:08,719
identifies with so and so so uh what i

3351
01:52:14,070 --> 01:52:09,920
mean is not this

3352
01:52:17,430 --> 01:52:14,080
i said i meant s so uh most of us

3353
01:52:19,669 --> 01:52:17,440
identify as a person in the sense that

3354
01:52:22,629 --> 01:52:19,679
we live for a certain time span

3355
01:52:24,310 --> 01:52:22,639
uh we have certain organismic needs we

3356
01:52:26,070 --> 01:52:24,320
have a physiology

3357
01:52:27,669 --> 01:52:26,080
we have social relationships to our

3358
01:52:29,510 --> 01:52:27,679
environment

3359
01:52:31,589 --> 01:52:29,520
we have relationships that we serve we

3360
01:52:34,470 --> 01:52:31,599
have a greater whole that we serve

3361
01:52:34,950 --> 01:52:34,480
that gives rise to our spirituality and

3362
01:52:37,830 --> 01:52:34,960
so on

3363
01:52:38,709 --> 01:52:37,840
and all these things define what we try

3364
01:52:41,430 --> 01:52:38,719
to keep stable

3365
01:52:43,109 --> 01:52:41,440
what we perpetuate the thing that we try

3366
01:52:44,709 --> 01:52:43,119
to control the control system that we

3367
01:52:45,990 --> 01:52:44,719
are for this is where we are the

3368
01:52:47,189 --> 01:52:46,000
thermostat for right all these

3369
01:52:49,030 --> 01:52:47,199
dimensions of needs

3370
01:52:50,310 --> 01:52:49,040
a few hundred physiological needs a

3371
01:52:53,109 --> 01:52:50,320
dozen social needs

3372
01:52:54,790 --> 01:52:53,119
a handful of cognitive needs and uh

3373
01:52:57,270 --> 01:52:54,800
keeping all these in balance

3374
01:52:58,070 --> 01:52:57,280
gives rise to our identification the

3375
01:53:00,070 --> 01:52:58,080
identification

3376
01:53:01,830 --> 01:53:00,080
is a result of us making models of how

3377
01:53:03,430 --> 01:53:01,840
these needs relate and so we create a

3378
01:53:05,350 --> 01:53:03,440
hierarchy of purposes

3379
01:53:07,430 --> 01:53:05,360
the needs themselves are not sufficient

3380
01:53:09,189 --> 01:53:07,440
we need to have a model of what is going

3381
01:53:11,270 --> 01:53:09,199
to give us pleasure and pain

3382
01:53:12,950 --> 01:53:11,280
and this is what we would call a purpose

3383
01:53:13,830 --> 01:53:12,960
and their purposes need to be compatible

3384
01:53:15,589 --> 01:53:13,840
with each other

3385
01:53:16,870 --> 01:53:15,599
and this hierarchy of purposes that we

3386
01:53:19,669 --> 01:53:16,880
end up with is

3387
01:53:21,350 --> 01:53:19,679
in some sense our soul it's who we are

3388
01:53:22,870 --> 01:53:21,360
or what what we think we are what we

3389
01:53:25,189 --> 01:53:22,880
think of as ourselves

3390
01:53:27,030 --> 01:53:25,199
and we change this hierarchy of purpose

3391
01:53:29,109 --> 01:53:27,040
yes of course we can we do

3392
01:53:30,950 --> 01:53:29,119
our in our because of our life it

3393
01:53:32,470 --> 01:53:30,960
changes so for instance um for most

3394
01:53:33,990 --> 01:53:32,480
people it changes radically when they

3395
01:53:35,270 --> 01:53:34,000
have children

3396
01:53:37,589 --> 01:53:35,280
right and what i mean is can we

3397
01:53:39,270 --> 01:53:37,599
consciously direct it

3398
01:53:40,790 --> 01:53:39,280
yes directly it's just like it's the

3399
01:53:42,790 --> 01:53:40,800
mind there's something behind us

3400
01:53:43,990 --> 01:53:42,800
that's producing us and we're just

3401
01:53:45,510 --> 01:53:44,000
players in this game

3402
01:53:46,790 --> 01:53:45,520
yeah we have the feeling that we're

3403
01:53:48,709 --> 01:53:46,800
controlling it but we're actually just

3404
01:53:51,030 --> 01:53:48,719
being told what to do

3405
01:53:51,910 --> 01:53:51,040
so we can control it in such a way that

3406
01:53:54,550 --> 01:53:51,920
we uh

3407
01:53:56,790 --> 01:53:54,560
identify pathways in which the models

3408
01:53:59,669 --> 01:53:56,800
that are being created in the self or

3409
01:54:00,870 --> 01:53:59,679
as contents of the self inform future

3410
01:54:03,589 --> 01:54:00,880
behavior

3411
01:54:06,310 --> 01:54:03,599
and of course there is the self itself

3412
01:54:09,270 --> 01:54:06,320
is not an agent it's a model of that

3413
01:54:11,510 --> 01:54:09,280
but you can experience that uh from the

3414
01:54:13,350 --> 01:54:11,520
level at which yourself is constituted

3415
01:54:16,550 --> 01:54:13,360
you can change the identification of the

3416
01:54:19,589 --> 01:54:16,560
self this is basically keegan level five

3417
01:54:20,149 --> 01:54:19,599
where uh an agent gets agency not just

3418
01:54:22,470 --> 01:54:20,159
over

3419
01:54:24,550 --> 01:54:22,480
the way it constructs its beliefs but

3420
01:54:27,030 --> 01:54:24,560
also agency over the way in asian

3421
01:54:29,669 --> 01:54:27,040
constructs its identification

3422
01:54:31,109 --> 01:54:29,679
and colloquially we talk about these

3423
01:54:33,510 --> 01:54:31,119
states as ones

3424
01:54:34,629 --> 01:54:33,520
of enlightenment because we realize that

3425
01:54:37,669 --> 01:54:34,639
the way things

3426
01:54:38,950 --> 01:54:37,679
appear to us that these appearances are

3427
01:54:40,629 --> 01:54:38,960
representations

3428
01:54:43,030 --> 01:54:40,639
now things are not objectively good or

3429
01:54:45,030 --> 01:54:43,040
bad that but that there is a choice that

3430
01:54:46,070 --> 01:54:45,040
happens at some level in the mind

3431
01:54:48,070 --> 01:54:46,080
whether these things are being

3432
01:54:49,350 --> 01:54:48,080
experienced as good or bad and that we

3433
01:54:52,070 --> 01:54:49,360
are responsible for

3434
01:54:53,990 --> 01:54:52,080
our reactions to things and the way that

3435
01:54:56,870 --> 01:54:54,000
we react to things is instrumental

3436
01:54:58,870 --> 01:54:56,880
to higher level goals that we might have

3437
01:55:01,430 --> 01:54:58,880
and once this happens we can

3438
01:55:03,189 --> 01:55:01,440
learn a number of techniques in which we

3439
01:55:05,910 --> 01:55:03,199
change

3440
01:55:06,470 --> 01:55:05,920
how things appear to us so uh for

3441
01:55:10,229 --> 01:55:06,480
instance

3442
01:55:12,149 --> 01:55:10,239
uh when you do the dishes this might uh

3443
01:55:13,990 --> 01:55:12,159
so you might find it horrible to do the

3444
01:55:14,310 --> 01:55:14,000
dishes because it takes time away from

3445
01:55:19,030 --> 01:55:14,320
you

3446
01:55:21,910 --> 01:55:19,040
sticky and

3447
01:55:22,550 --> 01:55:21,920
it's annoying and so on you could also

3448
01:55:24,550 --> 01:55:22,560
realize

3449
01:55:25,669 --> 01:55:24,560
it's time out for you where you just do

3450
01:55:27,510 --> 01:55:25,679
a very simple

3451
01:55:30,070 --> 01:55:27,520
physical tassel itself is pleasant

3452
01:55:31,910 --> 01:55:30,080
because it's nice and warm on your hands

3453
01:55:33,589 --> 01:55:31,920
your body doesn't hurt while you do it

3454
01:55:35,589 --> 01:55:33,599
and you get some time to contemplate

3455
01:55:37,510 --> 01:55:35,599
and you need to do it anyway and you can

3456
01:55:39,910 --> 01:55:37,520
turn this into a time that you enjoy

3457
01:55:40,709 --> 01:55:39,920
right and you can get agency over the

3458
01:55:42,310 --> 01:55:40,719
simple thing

3459
01:55:43,750 --> 01:55:42,320
so this sounds like in self-development

3460
01:55:45,350 --> 01:55:43,760
where they would say just reframe your

3461
01:55:47,750 --> 01:55:45,360
problems into something positive so

3462
01:55:49,510 --> 01:55:47,760
let's say you have to run

3463
01:55:50,870 --> 01:55:49,520
you're you hate running you just say

3464
01:55:51,510 --> 01:55:50,880
well i'm doing something that's good for

3465
01:55:54,629 --> 01:55:51,520
my body

3466
01:55:56,470 --> 01:55:54,639
i like it yeah so the the question is uh

3467
01:55:58,229 --> 01:55:56,480
are you just telling yourself a

3468
01:56:00,470 --> 01:55:58,239
different story consciously or do you

3469
01:56:04,229 --> 01:56:00,480
experience the story as being different

3470
01:56:06,149 --> 01:56:04,239
and so their intended result is

3471
01:56:08,070 --> 01:56:06,159
that something happens upstream of your

3472
01:56:09,589 --> 01:56:08,080
experience which means you now suddenly

3473
01:56:11,589 --> 01:56:09,599
experience doing the dishes

3474
01:56:14,070 --> 01:56:11,599
as pleasant intrinsically pleasant it's

3475
01:56:17,990 --> 01:56:14,080
not just you're talking yourself into

3476
01:56:20,790 --> 01:56:18,000
uh some kind of a delusion

3477
01:56:22,629 --> 01:56:20,800
that uh makes you pretend that you like

3478
01:56:24,070 --> 01:56:22,639
right so how do you cross that barrier

3479
01:56:25,510 --> 01:56:24,080
because if you just tell yourself well i

3480
01:56:26,390 --> 01:56:25,520
like this task i like this task even

3481
01:56:27,189 --> 01:56:26,400
though you hate it

3482
01:56:29,589 --> 01:56:27,199
you feel like you're being

3483
01:56:31,030 --> 01:56:29,599
self-deceptive and it doesn't work

3484
01:56:33,030 --> 01:56:31,040
so how do you actually get it so that

3485
01:56:34,950 --> 01:56:33,040
you experience positive emotion from it

3486
01:56:37,510 --> 01:56:34,960
in that case it's super simple you just

3487
01:56:38,149 --> 01:56:37,520
focus on those aspects of the task that

3488
01:56:39,750 --> 01:56:38,159
are

3489
01:56:41,589 --> 01:56:39,760
that for instance contain sensory

3490
01:56:43,910 --> 01:56:41,599
pleasure

3491
01:56:45,589 --> 01:56:43,920
and uh there is uh and the aesthetic

3492
01:56:47,109 --> 01:56:45,599
pleasure of being able to follow your

3493
01:56:48,790 --> 01:56:47,119
own thoughts where you do something that

3494
01:56:50,470 --> 01:56:48,800
does not bind your attention very much

3495
01:56:53,189 --> 01:56:50,480
and is not directed on

3496
01:56:54,149 --> 01:56:53,199
say work goals or family goals or

3497
01:56:57,109 --> 01:56:54,159
something else

3498
01:56:59,270 --> 01:56:57,119
right so you can uh enjoy the mental

3499
01:57:02,310 --> 01:56:59,280
freedom that you get and you can enjoy

3500
01:57:04,310 --> 01:57:02,320
the uh pleasant aspects of the sensation

3501
01:57:07,910 --> 01:57:04,320
of the warm water and the soap

3502
01:57:10,070 --> 01:57:07,920
and the movement of the hands and the uh

3503
01:57:10,950 --> 01:57:10,080
softness of the cloths that you use for

3504
01:57:13,589 --> 01:57:10,960
cleaning and

3505
01:57:15,270 --> 01:57:13,599
the hardness and of of the things that

3506
01:57:17,270 --> 01:57:15,280
you are cleaning and so on and the

3507
01:57:18,870 --> 01:57:17,280
sense of cleanliness that you are

3508
01:57:19,589 --> 01:57:18,880
creating in the world and the aesthetics

3509
01:57:21,990 --> 01:57:19,599
that are

3510
01:57:23,189 --> 01:57:22,000
involved in that process in the same way

3511
01:57:25,430 --> 01:57:23,199
if you

3512
01:57:27,189 --> 01:57:25,440
don't want to do the dishes because the

3513
01:57:29,510 --> 01:57:27,199
things it takes attention from you

3514
01:57:30,390 --> 01:57:29,520
you can focus on the negative aspects

3515
01:57:32,629 --> 01:57:30,400
and uh by

3516
01:57:33,750 --> 01:57:32,639
emphasizing this in your attention you

3517
01:57:35,589 --> 01:57:33,760
basically uh

3518
01:57:36,790 --> 01:57:35,599
put a spotlight on this part or that

3519
01:57:39,109 --> 01:57:36,800
part of reality

3520
01:57:41,030 --> 01:57:39,119
and you make you emphasize the parts

3521
01:57:41,990 --> 01:57:41,040
that you experience in there right so

3522
01:57:44,229 --> 01:57:42,000
you can get

3523
01:57:45,589 --> 01:57:44,239
pleasure aesthetic and sensory pleasure

3524
01:57:48,550 --> 01:57:45,599
from a task

3525
01:57:50,149 --> 01:57:48,560
and you can get uh sensory horrors from

3526
01:57:51,589 --> 01:57:50,159
it and aesthetic displeasure from the

3527
01:57:52,070 --> 01:57:51,599
same task if you focus on different

3528
01:57:54,629 --> 01:57:52,080
aspects

3529
01:57:56,390 --> 01:57:54,639
of it if it's a matter of changing one's

3530
01:57:57,189 --> 01:57:56,400
focus from the negative to the positive

3531
01:57:59,350 --> 01:57:57,199
how could we

3532
01:58:00,470 --> 01:57:59,360
seldom do that if it's so positive i

3533
01:58:02,470 --> 01:58:00,480
mean if it's so

3534
01:58:04,149 --> 01:58:02,480
net positive to look at a task and just

3535
01:58:04,950 --> 01:58:04,159
focus on what's bringing you sensory

3536
01:58:08,229 --> 01:58:04,960
pleasure

3537
01:58:09,990 --> 01:58:08,239
why don't we do that i suspect that we

3538
01:58:11,589 --> 01:58:10,000
don't have intrinsic attention on this

3539
01:58:13,589 --> 01:58:11,599
for the most part because it would not

3540
01:58:14,229 --> 01:58:13,599
be useful if we protect ourselves in

3541
01:58:15,990 --> 01:58:14,239
this way

3542
01:58:17,750 --> 01:58:16,000
maybe there is a reason why we don't

3543
01:58:18,709 --> 01:58:17,760
like doing the dishes or we like doing

3544
01:58:21,350 --> 01:58:18,719
the dishes

3545
01:58:23,030 --> 01:58:21,360
that we are not wise enough to discover

3546
01:58:25,350 --> 01:58:23,040
and if we could just reprogram

3547
01:58:26,950 --> 01:58:25,360
our reaction to things before we

3548
01:58:28,950 --> 01:58:26,960
understand that reason

3549
01:58:30,950 --> 01:58:28,960
uh maybe that would be premature and we

3550
01:58:32,790 --> 01:58:30,960
would end up in a local optimum in the

3551
01:58:35,109 --> 01:58:32,800
way that we organize our life

3552
01:58:37,030 --> 01:58:35,119
where we end up being a dishwasher when

3553
01:58:41,189 --> 01:58:37,040
we should instead be a lover

3554
01:58:44,229 --> 01:58:41,199
or an artist or an explorer

3555
01:58:47,270 --> 01:58:44,239
or a an intellectual worker right

3556
01:58:47,990 --> 01:58:47,280
so maybe it's too early to to reprogram

3557
01:58:49,270 --> 01:58:48,000
your experience

3558
01:58:51,510 --> 01:58:49,280
before you know what you're actually

3559
01:58:52,870 --> 01:58:51,520
doing i see so you have to come you have

3560
01:58:53,669 --> 01:58:52,880
to understand yourself because there

3561
01:58:56,149 --> 01:58:53,679
could be

3562
01:58:57,830 --> 01:58:56,159
an evolutionary right yeah okay i

3563
01:59:00,470 --> 01:58:57,840
suspect evolution would have given us

3564
01:59:02,229 --> 01:59:00,480
the ability to reframe our experiences

3565
01:59:04,870 --> 01:59:02,239
fundamentally if that would have been

3566
01:59:06,550 --> 01:59:04,880
useful and the fact that it's not is uh

3567
01:59:08,709 --> 01:59:06,560
if you treat yourselves into

3568
01:59:11,430 --> 01:59:08,719
experiencing whatever you do as pleasant

3569
01:59:13,430 --> 01:59:11,440
too early it might make you very happy

3570
01:59:15,669 --> 01:59:13,440
but also dysfunctional

3571
01:59:16,950 --> 01:59:15,679
you also mentioned once that your theory

3572
01:59:18,470 --> 01:59:16,960
of consciousness is something that we

3573
01:59:19,430 --> 01:59:18,480
intuitively know and that when you tell

3574
01:59:23,750 --> 01:59:19,440
people

3575
01:59:24,629 --> 01:59:23,760
when they stumble upon this insight that

3576
01:59:26,310 --> 01:59:24,639
you also

3577
01:59:28,390 --> 01:59:26,320
elucidate that they get

3578
01:59:30,149 --> 01:59:28,400
depersonalization disorder

3579
01:59:32,229 --> 01:59:30,159
it can go two ways where they feel

3580
01:59:33,910 --> 01:59:32,239
liberated or they feel

3581
01:59:35,669 --> 01:59:33,920
distance from their body and it's and

3582
01:59:38,390 --> 01:59:35,679
it's net

3583
01:59:39,750 --> 01:59:38,400
wretched and ruinous for them what do

3584
01:59:43,430 --> 01:59:39,760
you say to those people

3585
01:59:44,790 --> 01:59:43,440
who who feel disidentified from there

3586
01:59:48,070 --> 01:59:44,800
who don't feel identified with their

3587
01:59:51,750 --> 01:59:48,080
body and it's not a positive experience

3588
01:59:53,589 --> 01:59:51,760
what advice would you give them i would

3589
01:59:55,189 --> 01:59:53,599
advise them to go to a real therapist

3590
01:59:56,950 --> 01:59:55,199
because i'm sadly not a therapist i'm

3591
01:59:58,950 --> 01:59:56,960
not competent of doing this don't listen

3592
01:59:59,589 --> 01:59:58,960
to me if it gives weird experiences in

3593
02:00:01,750 --> 01:59:59,599
your body

3594
02:00:03,430 --> 02:00:01,760
i have cannot take responsibility for

3595
02:00:06,390 --> 02:00:03,440
what's happening to you

3596
02:00:07,910 --> 02:00:06,400
so uh i'm just a cognitive scientist i

3597
02:00:09,030 --> 02:00:07,920
that would be super dangerous i think

3598
02:00:10,790 --> 02:00:09,040
and irresponsible

3599
02:00:12,070 --> 02:00:10,800
if i just try to create weird

3600
02:00:15,189 --> 02:00:12,080
experiences in your body

3601
02:00:16,790 --> 02:00:15,199
as a result of my theories so i would

3602
02:00:18,310 --> 02:00:16,800
say this is a side effect

3603
02:00:19,910 --> 02:00:18,320
and it might be a side effect of you

3604
02:00:22,229 --> 02:00:19,920
trying to answer a

3605
02:00:23,270 --> 02:00:22,239
question that i have myself and me

3606
02:00:25,109 --> 02:00:23,280
answering this question

3607
02:00:26,550 --> 02:00:25,119
doesn't lead to weird experiences in my

3608
02:00:29,030 --> 02:00:26,560
body

3609
02:00:30,390 --> 02:00:29,040
and the i have yet experiences in my

3610
02:00:32,950 --> 02:00:30,400
body because i exist

3611
02:00:34,629 --> 02:00:32,960
right existing is weird and i want to

3612
02:00:35,270 --> 02:00:34,639
explain why is it possible that they

3613
02:00:37,270 --> 02:00:35,280
exist that

3614
02:00:39,189 --> 02:00:37,280
experience that i have a body why is it

3615
02:00:39,510 --> 02:00:39,199
that this body sometimes feels very big

3616
02:00:43,030 --> 02:00:39,520
and

3617
02:00:46,390 --> 02:00:43,040
extremely small

3618
02:00:47,750 --> 02:00:46,400
why does it sometimes disappear how is

3619
02:00:49,189 --> 02:00:47,760
it possible that i can have an out of

3620
02:00:51,750 --> 02:00:49,199
body experience

3621
02:00:53,430 --> 02:00:51,760
i want to explain all these things and i

3622
02:00:53,990 --> 02:00:53,440
find plausible explanations that all

3623
02:00:56,310 --> 02:00:54,000
make sense

3624
02:00:58,550 --> 02:00:56,320
and are much more logical than the

3625
02:01:02,149 --> 02:00:58,560
inverse of these explanations

3626
02:01:05,430 --> 02:01:02,159
right so i i find them helpful and

3627
02:01:07,270 --> 02:01:05,440
what i can offer people is suggested

3628
02:01:08,870 --> 02:01:07,280
solutions to similar question that i

3629
02:01:09,510 --> 02:01:08,880
have and i might be wrong with my

3630
02:01:13,189 --> 02:01:09,520
answers

3631
02:01:15,669 --> 02:01:13,199
at this point in my life

3632
02:01:16,229 --> 02:01:15,679
and they are compatible with the answers

3633
02:01:19,990 --> 02:01:16,239
that

3634
02:01:21,990 --> 02:01:20,000
have looked into this they're also

3635
02:01:24,149 --> 02:01:22,000
largely co-extensional with the answers

3636
02:01:26,149 --> 02:01:24,159
that a lot of meditators give

3637
02:01:27,350 --> 02:01:26,159
it's only that they are using a language

3638
02:01:28,870 --> 02:01:27,360
that

3639
02:01:30,709 --> 02:01:28,880
seems to be incompatible with the

3640
02:01:32,870 --> 02:01:30,719
language that we have established since

3641
02:01:35,589 --> 02:01:32,880
the enlightenment in our own culture

3642
02:01:36,310 --> 02:01:35,599
it's basically uh there is a disconnect

3643
02:01:39,189 --> 02:01:36,320
between

3644
02:01:40,629 --> 02:01:39,199
what we experience as being real and how

3645
02:01:43,430 --> 02:01:40,639
we talk about reality

3646
02:01:45,350 --> 02:01:43,440
in our culture and this makes it so hard

3647
02:01:48,149 --> 02:01:45,360
to make sense of consciousness

3648
02:01:49,669 --> 02:01:48,159
and feelings and fundamental experience

3649
02:01:53,030 --> 02:01:49,679
and identity

3650
02:01:53,910 --> 02:01:53,040
and transcendence and so on and the goal

3651
02:01:56,870 --> 02:01:53,920
that

3652
02:01:57,910 --> 02:01:56,880
i have when i give these explanations to

3653
02:02:01,270 --> 02:01:57,920
myself and others

3654
02:02:03,510 --> 02:02:01,280
is to explain how we can get what we

3655
02:02:06,870 --> 02:02:03,520
experience as being real

3656
02:02:09,910 --> 02:02:06,880
and what we also

3657
02:02:11,669 --> 02:02:09,920
observe as happening around us in our

3658
02:02:13,910 --> 02:02:11,679
interaction with the environment

3659
02:02:15,750 --> 02:02:13,920
and the way that we reason about reality

3660
02:02:17,669 --> 02:02:15,760
how we can put this into one how we can

3661
02:02:19,669 --> 02:02:17,679
construct the metaphysics

3662
02:02:20,950 --> 02:02:19,679
that is compatible with our scientific

3663
02:02:22,870 --> 02:02:20,960
worldview

3664
02:02:26,470 --> 02:02:22,880
and that allows us to make sense of what

3665
02:02:29,990 --> 02:02:28,310
what about people who fear losing

3666
02:02:31,669 --> 02:02:30,000
control that as soon as they have this

3667
02:02:33,990 --> 02:02:31,679
insight that the mind is just that you

3668
02:02:36,149 --> 02:02:34,000
are just a story within your own mind

3669
02:02:37,589 --> 02:02:36,159
that you don't have control now you say

3670
02:02:39,430 --> 02:02:37,599
well we have control but i'm

3671
02:02:40,950 --> 02:02:39,440
i'm unclear as to how as to who has

3672
02:02:42,709 --> 02:02:40,960
control seems like the mind has control

3673
02:02:44,470 --> 02:02:42,719
and there's some relationship between

3674
02:02:46,070 --> 02:02:44,480
the story that you're in and what's

3675
02:02:47,589 --> 02:02:46,080
telling the story i i don't see that

3676
02:02:49,189 --> 02:02:47,599
connection

3677
02:02:51,350 --> 02:02:49,199
so they never had control in the first

3678
02:02:53,510 --> 02:02:51,360
place yes and i mean you see this every

3679
02:02:55,990 --> 02:02:53,520
day right there are things that you do

3680
02:02:57,910 --> 02:02:56,000
that you would prefer you wouldn't do at

3681
02:03:00,390 --> 02:02:57,920
least most of us are in that state and

3682
02:03:02,229 --> 02:03:00,400
unless there are perfect sages in a

3683
02:03:04,709 --> 02:03:02,239
there was tradition

3684
02:03:06,550 --> 02:03:04,719
where everything that they do is in a

3685
02:03:07,510 --> 02:03:06,560
complete union with their perception of

3686
02:03:10,629 --> 02:03:07,520
what the universe

3687
02:03:12,550 --> 02:03:10,639
needs to have done at that point and

3688
02:03:13,990 --> 02:03:12,560
most of us don't get to this point it's

3689
02:03:16,709 --> 02:03:14,000
very hard to cultivate your mind

3690
02:03:17,430 --> 02:03:16,719
to this union where you have an identity

3691
02:03:19,030 --> 02:03:17,440
between you

3692
02:03:20,709 --> 02:03:19,040
perceive what needs to be done and what

3693
02:03:23,270 --> 02:03:20,719
you do

3694
02:03:25,109 --> 02:03:23,280
and uh this discrepancy is something

3695
02:03:25,830 --> 02:03:25,119
that we have to explain and we can only

3696
02:03:28,790 --> 02:03:25,840
explain it

3697
02:03:30,629 --> 02:03:28,800
as as as not being in control and

3698
02:03:32,790 --> 02:03:30,639
meditators describe this as the

3699
02:03:33,990 --> 02:03:32,800
monkeys trying to prod the elephant and

3700
02:03:36,470 --> 02:03:34,000
the elephant

3701
02:03:37,910 --> 02:03:36,480
just walking its way as it wants to and

3702
02:03:39,910 --> 02:03:37,920
sometimes it's aligned with what the

3703
02:03:41,589 --> 02:03:39,920
monkey sees and thinks is important

3704
02:03:43,030 --> 02:03:41,599
but by and large the elephant follows

3705
02:03:45,270 --> 02:03:43,040
its own wisdom

3706
02:03:47,109 --> 02:03:45,280
do you have any advice for someone who

3707
02:03:50,790 --> 02:03:47,119
finds that disconcerting that the

3708
02:03:56,629 --> 02:03:53,510
uh i think it's uh try to not take the

3709
02:03:58,390 --> 02:03:56,639
monkey that seriously and try to

3710
02:04:00,069 --> 02:03:58,400
sense what the elephant is doing and

3711
02:04:01,430 --> 02:04:00,079
realize that it's a much much larger

3712
02:04:03,830 --> 02:04:01,440
dance than the dance on the

3713
02:04:04,870 --> 02:04:03,840
of the monkey on top of the elephant but

3714
02:04:06,950 --> 02:04:04,880
uh

3715
02:04:08,790 --> 02:04:06,960
and it's also a larger dance than the

3716
02:04:11,589 --> 02:04:08,800
elephant itself it's the

3717
02:04:13,430 --> 02:04:11,599
entire forest right and the elephant

3718
02:04:14,950 --> 02:04:13,440
being part of it and being in resonance

3719
02:04:18,149 --> 02:04:14,960
with it interacting with it

3720
02:04:19,910 --> 02:04:18,159
and there's only very few decisions uh

3721
02:04:21,669 --> 02:04:19,920
in proportion to the entire thing that

3722
02:04:22,390 --> 02:04:21,679
is happening that can actually be

3723
02:04:25,990 --> 02:04:22,400
controlled

3724
02:04:28,709 --> 02:04:26,000
certain ways and what you can

3725
02:04:29,669 --> 02:04:28,719
explore is in which ways you can create

3726
02:04:31,350 --> 02:04:29,679
a coherence

3727
02:04:33,510 --> 02:04:31,360
between what you perceive that needs to

3728
02:04:35,189 --> 02:04:33,520
be done the global aesthetics of the

3729
02:04:36,470 --> 02:04:35,199
universe that you prefer the way the

3730
02:04:38,470 --> 02:04:36,480
forest should look like

3731
02:04:40,069 --> 02:04:38,480
and this is a part of your task is to

3732
02:04:42,069 --> 02:04:40,079
figuring out these aesthetics

3733
02:04:43,430 --> 02:04:42,079
how can this universe be coherent and

3734
02:04:46,390 --> 02:04:43,440
consistent and

3735
02:04:47,910 --> 02:04:46,400
as a result beautiful and what is the

3736
02:04:50,950 --> 02:04:47,920
things that can be controlled

3737
02:04:52,790 --> 02:04:50,960
as part of it locally and

3738
02:04:54,950 --> 02:04:52,800
you are the result of that you are not

3739
02:04:56,950 --> 02:04:54,960
the cause of that

3740
02:04:58,629 --> 02:04:56,960
you are the result of the local control

3741
02:04:58,950 --> 02:04:58,639
you are not the thing that causes the

3742
02:05:02,390 --> 02:04:58,960
low

3743
02:05:03,830 --> 02:05:02,400
control now the local control you

3744
02:05:04,470 --> 02:05:03,840
mentioned intuition earlier that it's

3745
02:05:07,189 --> 02:05:04,480
important

3746
02:05:07,510 --> 02:05:07,199
to follow your intuition and i assume

3747
02:05:11,750 --> 02:05:07,520
that

3748
02:05:14,149 --> 02:05:11,760
conscience your heart

3749
02:05:14,870 --> 02:05:14,159
is that a part of the elephant so in

3750
02:05:16,069 --> 02:05:14,880
some sense

3751
02:05:17,510 --> 02:05:16,079
you should stop trying to direct the

3752
02:05:19,589 --> 02:05:17,520
elephant and follow the elephant as the

3753
02:05:22,069 --> 02:05:19,599
monkey

3754
02:05:24,390 --> 02:05:22,079
well you need to do both but ideally you

3755
02:05:26,310 --> 02:05:24,400
want to have a state where the elephant

3756
02:05:28,629 --> 02:05:26,320
is treating the monkey as one of its

3757
02:05:32,870 --> 02:05:28,639
most useful tools but of course not it's

3758
02:05:35,669 --> 02:05:32,880
uh it's only one and uh the

3759
02:05:37,350 --> 02:05:35,679
um monkey needs to be able to shut up

3760
02:05:39,430 --> 02:05:37,360
from time to time

3761
02:05:41,589 --> 02:05:39,440
and it can give the elephant feedback

3762
02:05:43,510 --> 02:05:41,599
especially when the elephant needs it

3763
02:05:44,629 --> 02:05:43,520
and so in some sense there should be a

3764
02:05:46,390 --> 02:05:44,639
friendship between the

3765
02:05:49,189 --> 02:05:46,400
monkey and the elephant in the sense

3766
02:05:51,830 --> 02:05:49,199
that the monkey waits until

3767
02:05:53,589 --> 02:05:51,840
it has its task and its time and the

3768
02:05:55,350 --> 02:05:53,599
elephant is actually asking it for

3769
02:05:57,109 --> 02:05:55,360
something the purpose of reason

3770
02:05:59,750 --> 02:05:57,119
and analytical thinking is to repair

3771
02:06:02,790 --> 02:05:59,760
perception and when i mean intuition

3772
02:06:04,709 --> 02:06:02,800
i mean perception because we mean that

3773
02:06:08,550 --> 02:06:04,719
it's the purpose is to repair

3774
02:06:11,430 --> 02:06:08,560
perception perception is the

3775
02:06:12,470 --> 02:06:11,440
part of our mind that is integrating

3776
02:06:15,270 --> 02:06:12,480
information

3777
02:06:16,709 --> 02:06:15,280
in a way that is not linguistic and not

3778
02:06:19,990 --> 02:06:16,719
conceptual

3779
02:06:22,709 --> 02:06:20,000
it means the integration is not discrete

3780
02:06:24,229 --> 02:06:22,719
it's an integration that happens over

3781
02:06:25,830 --> 02:06:24,239
many many features often in an

3782
02:06:28,229 --> 02:06:25,840
irreducible way

3783
02:06:29,750 --> 02:06:28,239
or in a way that we don't yet understand

3784
02:06:31,830 --> 02:06:29,760
imagine the way that you integrate

3785
02:06:33,910 --> 02:06:31,840
information when you try to catch a ball

3786
02:06:35,830 --> 02:06:33,920
right you see how the appearance of the

3787
02:06:38,149 --> 02:06:35,840
ball changes in your visual field

3788
02:06:39,109 --> 02:06:38,159
and as a result you learn how to move to

3789
02:06:41,270 --> 02:06:39,119
catch it

3790
02:06:42,390 --> 02:06:41,280
and if you try to do this analytically

3791
02:06:44,629 --> 02:06:42,400
if you try to

3792
02:06:46,149 --> 02:06:44,639
compute the model with the capacity that

3793
02:06:46,870 --> 02:06:46,159
your mind has you're not going to be as

3794
02:06:48,790 --> 02:06:46,880
effective

3795
02:06:50,790 --> 02:06:48,800
than when you are using in perceptual

3796
02:06:51,430 --> 02:06:50,800
model which we would call intuitive

3797
02:06:53,830 --> 02:06:51,440
right you

3798
02:06:54,870 --> 02:06:53,840
train your intuition of what movements

3799
02:06:57,990 --> 02:06:54,880
you should be making

3800
02:06:59,589 --> 02:06:58,000
to get the ball and when this is

3801
02:07:02,149 --> 02:06:59,599
systematically not working

3802
02:07:03,669 --> 02:07:02,159
okay and you can use your uh reason to

3803
02:07:05,750 --> 02:07:03,679
figure out what's going on

3804
02:07:07,350 --> 02:07:05,760
okay or when you are already very good

3805
02:07:08,709 --> 02:07:07,360
and you try to figure out is there a way

3806
02:07:10,629 --> 02:07:08,719
in which i could do it better

3807
02:07:12,229 --> 02:07:10,639
right then you can use your reason to

3808
02:07:14,069 --> 02:07:12,239
construct a system that is measuring

3809
02:07:16,790 --> 02:07:14,079
your movements and using camera and

3810
02:07:18,229 --> 02:07:16,800
optimizing your technique or uh or

3811
02:07:19,189 --> 02:07:18,239
simpler things like finding a better

3812
02:07:20,629 --> 02:07:19,199
trainer

3813
02:07:22,069 --> 02:07:20,639
right right right okay so there's a

3814
02:07:22,790 --> 02:07:22,079
mismatch between what you want and then

3815
02:07:24,390 --> 02:07:22,800
what you get

3816
02:07:25,910 --> 02:07:24,400
and the repairing is yes this is what

3817
02:07:28,790 --> 02:07:25,920
reason is for it's basically for dealing

3818
02:07:30,709 --> 02:07:28,800
with these edge cases

3819
02:07:33,270 --> 02:07:30,719
is there a way to falsify or test your

3820
02:07:35,430 --> 02:07:33,280
model of consciousness

3821
02:07:37,189 --> 02:07:35,440
i think that there is a way to test it

3822
02:07:38,470 --> 02:07:37,199
in the sense that we can at some point

3823
02:07:41,589 --> 02:07:38,480
build a system

3824
02:07:43,669 --> 02:07:41,599
that will explain that it's conscious

3825
02:07:44,790 --> 02:07:43,679
to others that that would be the

3826
02:07:46,790 --> 02:07:44,800
ultimate proof

3827
02:07:48,550 --> 02:07:46,800
and to itself and that there would be

3828
02:07:50,310 --> 02:07:48,560
nothing left to be explained

3829
02:07:51,830 --> 02:07:50,320
wait wait sorry sorry if it just says

3830
02:07:54,310 --> 02:07:51,840
that it's conscious then it's conscious

3831
02:07:56,069 --> 02:07:54,320
this is so so the question is whether

3832
02:07:57,589 --> 02:07:56,079
you build it in such a way that it

3833
02:07:59,270 --> 02:07:57,599
cheats

3834
02:08:01,030 --> 02:07:59,280
right so you could of course make a

3835
02:08:03,589 --> 02:08:01,040
chatbot that pretends that it's

3836
02:08:05,830 --> 02:08:03,599
conscious without being conscious

3837
02:08:07,030 --> 02:08:05,840
and but this would mean that at some

3838
02:08:07,830 --> 02:08:07,040
point you will see a functional

3839
02:08:11,830 --> 02:08:07,840
difference

3840
02:08:14,310 --> 02:08:11,840
behavior of a conscious system

3841
02:08:15,270 --> 02:08:14,320
and the behavior of a system that is not

3842
02:08:17,510 --> 02:08:15,280
conscious

3843
02:08:19,430 --> 02:08:17,520
and i think currently that the

3844
02:08:22,069 --> 02:08:19,440
difference that you would observe

3845
02:08:24,229 --> 02:08:22,079
is that the system does not have a

3846
02:08:25,830 --> 02:08:24,239
control model of its own attention

3847
02:08:29,270 --> 02:08:25,840
it's not aware of the fact that it's

3848
02:08:31,030 --> 02:08:29,280
attending and what it is attending to

3849
02:08:32,790 --> 02:08:31,040
so for instance the question is a cat

3850
02:08:34,870 --> 02:08:32,800
conscious i think is a decidable

3851
02:08:35,510 --> 02:08:34,880
question it's a question that comes down

3852
02:08:38,550 --> 02:08:35,520
to

3853
02:08:42,149 --> 02:08:38,560
whether the cat can be best explained as

3854
02:08:43,990 --> 02:08:42,159
being aware of what it attends to and

3855
02:08:47,430 --> 02:08:44,000
based on this criterion i would say cats

3856
02:08:51,910 --> 02:08:49,910
and if you look at a sleepwalker a

3857
02:08:53,430 --> 02:08:51,920
sleepwalker is a person that is unaware

3858
02:08:55,430 --> 02:08:53,440
of what they attend to

3859
02:08:56,870 --> 02:08:55,440
they can attend two things but they

3860
02:08:58,149 --> 02:08:56,880
don't know that they do this and as a

3861
02:08:58,790 --> 02:08:58,159
result they cannot question their

3862
02:09:00,870 --> 02:08:58,800
actions

3863
02:09:01,830 --> 02:09:00,880
they cannot redirect their attention

3864
02:09:04,149 --> 02:09:01,840
they behave

3865
02:09:04,950 --> 02:09:04,159
in a way like an automaton because there

3866
02:09:08,390 --> 02:09:04,960
is

3867
02:09:09,109 --> 02:09:08,400
would be able to reflect on what they

3868
02:09:11,350 --> 02:09:09,119
are doing

3869
02:09:13,189 --> 02:09:11,360
and learn they can walk yes but they

3870
02:09:14,629 --> 02:09:13,199
cannot learn

3871
02:09:16,550 --> 02:09:14,639
they cannot change their behavior as a

3872
02:09:17,589 --> 02:09:16,560
result of reflecting

3873
02:09:19,430 --> 02:09:17,599
on the interaction with their

3874
02:09:20,709 --> 02:09:19,440
environment they cannot direct their

3875
02:09:21,910 --> 02:09:20,719
attention in this sense for this

3876
02:09:23,990 --> 02:09:21,920
attention learning

3877
02:09:25,189 --> 02:09:24,000
they can perform all the automatic

3878
02:09:27,510 --> 02:09:25,199
autonomous behaviors

3879
02:09:28,550 --> 02:09:27,520
that the elephant has been trained into

3880
02:09:30,470 --> 02:09:28,560
they can

3881
02:09:33,270 --> 02:09:30,480
there are perceptions taking place right

3882
02:09:36,310 --> 02:09:33,280
they can open the door they can even

3883
02:09:37,270 --> 02:09:36,320
make dinner but they are unable to learn

3884
02:09:39,350 --> 02:09:37,280
something

3885
02:09:41,030 --> 02:09:39,360
so they're able to coordinate actions

3886
02:09:42,390 --> 02:09:41,040
but it's like an orchestra without a

3887
02:09:44,310 --> 02:09:42,400
conductor

3888
02:09:45,510 --> 02:09:44,320
so capacity to learn as well as

3889
02:09:46,069 --> 02:09:45,520
attention is what's required for

3890
02:09:47,589 --> 02:09:46,079
consciousness

3891
02:09:49,189 --> 02:09:47,599
and somehow this becomes a test of

3892
02:09:51,030 --> 02:09:49,199
consciousness that you can falsify it

3893
02:09:53,830 --> 02:09:51,040
from this

3894
02:09:55,669 --> 02:09:53,840
i think that the ability to learn is

3895
02:09:57,430 --> 02:09:55,679
neither necessary nor sufficient you

3896
02:09:59,350 --> 02:09:57,440
have people that are conscious and that

3897
02:10:01,990 --> 02:09:59,360
have lost the ability to learn

3898
02:10:02,629 --> 02:10:02,000
and you have systems that can learn

3899
02:10:05,669 --> 02:10:02,639
clearly

3900
02:10:07,430 --> 02:10:05,679
they're not conscious but i think the

3901
02:10:09,589 --> 02:10:07,440
the purpose why we have this attention

3902
02:10:11,910 --> 02:10:09,599
is largely to enable us to

3903
02:10:14,950 --> 02:10:11,920
do a targeted recall of indexed memories

3904
02:10:17,109 --> 02:10:14,960
for the purpose of learning

3905
02:10:18,310 --> 02:10:17,119
is it ever possible to get a continuous

3906
02:10:20,790 --> 02:10:18,320
perception from

3907
02:10:22,229 --> 02:10:20,800
a discrete phenomenon so what i mean is

3908
02:10:25,030 --> 02:10:22,239
let's say we're just bits

3909
02:10:27,830 --> 02:10:25,040
zeros and ones and it's binary discrete

3910
02:10:29,430 --> 02:10:27,840
yet we perceive continuity smoothness

3911
02:10:31,910 --> 02:10:29,440
okay

3912
02:10:33,669 --> 02:10:31,920
how can smoothness come about from

3913
02:10:35,189 --> 02:10:33,679
discreteness

3914
02:10:36,709 --> 02:10:35,199
the trick that our brain is using

3915
02:10:38,709 --> 02:10:36,719
because our neurons don't act

3916
02:10:41,109 --> 02:10:38,719
continuously right the neurons involved

3917
02:10:42,550 --> 02:10:41,119
tend to fire at rates of like 20 hertz

3918
02:10:44,310 --> 02:10:42,560
how is it possible that we see a

3919
02:10:46,470 --> 02:10:44,320
continuous movement

3920
02:10:48,790 --> 02:10:46,480
and the trick that our brain seems to be

3921
02:10:51,990 --> 02:10:48,800
using is that it uses keyframes

3922
02:10:53,910 --> 02:10:52,000
and vectors that tell it how to compute

3923
02:10:56,470 --> 02:10:53,920
the next keyframe

3924
02:10:57,270 --> 02:10:56,480
and you can see some evidence for that

3925
02:11:00,709 --> 02:10:57,280
in two ways

3926
02:11:03,030 --> 02:11:00,719
one is um there are optical illusions

3927
02:11:05,830 --> 02:11:03,040
where you have a static image that is

3928
02:11:07,910 --> 02:11:05,840
seems to move on the page

3929
02:11:09,510 --> 02:11:07,920
and if you have such an optical illusion

3930
02:11:10,470 --> 02:11:09,520
it shows that there is the difference

3931
02:11:12,470 --> 02:11:10,480
between

3932
02:11:14,709 --> 02:11:12,480
the appearance of movement and the

3933
02:11:15,990 --> 02:11:14,719
change of location

3934
02:11:17,510 --> 02:11:16,000
right if something was moving

3935
02:11:19,510 --> 02:11:17,520
continuously you would expect it to

3936
02:11:21,030 --> 02:11:19,520
change location

3937
02:11:22,709 --> 02:11:21,040
but if something can move without

3938
02:11:24,550 --> 02:11:22,719
changing location it means that your

3939
02:11:25,669 --> 02:11:24,560
brain is representing the movement

3940
02:11:27,750 --> 02:11:25,679
separate

3941
02:11:29,189 --> 02:11:27,760
from the change in location the change

3942
02:11:30,950 --> 02:11:29,199
in location is the difference in the

3943
02:11:31,990 --> 02:11:30,960
keyframe there is only one frame right

3944
02:11:32,629 --> 02:11:32,000
that you don't look at different

3945
02:11:34,310 --> 02:11:32,639
keyframes

3946
02:11:36,550 --> 02:11:34,320
when you look at a static printout of an

3947
02:11:38,870 --> 02:11:36,560
optical illusion that moves

3948
02:11:40,629 --> 02:11:38,880
if you see it moving it's because you

3949
02:11:42,629 --> 02:11:40,639
only perceive the vector of movement

3950
02:11:44,550 --> 02:11:42,639
this means it's a static representation

3951
02:11:46,390 --> 02:11:44,560
that applies to the single frame

3952
02:11:47,589 --> 02:11:46,400
and tells you where you would expect the

3953
02:11:50,790 --> 02:11:47,599
thing to be

3954
02:11:52,790 --> 02:11:50,800
if it was a changing location and the

3955
02:11:54,550 --> 02:11:52,800
second evidence is that there are people

3956
02:11:58,470 --> 02:11:54,560
which have brain lesions

3957
02:12:00,149 --> 02:11:58,480
uh that uh lead to a stroboscopic

3958
02:12:02,069 --> 02:12:00,159
representation of reality which means

3959
02:12:04,550 --> 02:12:02,079
they only perceive the keyframes but

3960
02:12:06,149 --> 02:12:04,560
not the movement between the keyframes

3961
02:12:07,910 --> 02:12:06,159
okay so let's forget about external

3962
02:12:08,790 --> 02:12:07,920
sensory experience and what if you close

3963
02:12:11,109 --> 02:12:08,800
your eyes and you

3964
02:12:12,470 --> 02:12:11,119
visualize in your mind's eye a circle so

3965
02:12:15,109 --> 02:12:12,480
you see that as smooth

3966
02:12:17,030 --> 02:12:15,119
now are we just wrong in our perception

3967
02:12:18,310 --> 02:12:17,040
the circle is actually not smooth we've

3968
02:12:20,229 --> 02:12:18,320
tricked ourselves somehow

3969
02:12:22,069 --> 02:12:20,239
it's actually jagged like pixels if we

3970
02:12:23,669 --> 02:12:22,079
were to zoom in

3971
02:12:25,589 --> 02:12:23,679
how is it that we can get smoothness

3972
02:12:27,270 --> 02:12:25,599
even internally i would have to look at

3973
02:12:29,350 --> 02:12:27,280
the real circle because i have a

3974
02:12:30,629 --> 02:12:29,360
fantasia so i have a circular light up

3975
02:12:33,830 --> 02:12:30,639
here and i can see

3976
02:12:36,229 --> 02:12:33,840
it as a smooth in the sense but the

3977
02:12:41,030 --> 02:12:36,239
smoothness is mostly the absence of

3978
02:12:43,990 --> 02:12:41,040
a detectable non-smoothness

3979
02:12:45,270 --> 02:12:44,000
right so basically i can use a function

3980
02:12:48,550 --> 02:12:45,280
that describes

3981
02:12:51,350 --> 02:12:48,560
the progression of the line using this

3982
02:12:52,390 --> 02:12:51,360
smooth circle and i don't notice

3983
02:12:55,990 --> 02:12:52,400
features

3984
02:12:57,589 --> 02:12:56,000
that go away from that simple function

3985
02:12:59,830 --> 02:12:57,599
and i want to have a more complicated

3986
02:13:02,709 --> 02:12:59,840
function to describe an object that has

3987
02:13:04,709 --> 02:13:02,719
jaggies right so in some sense the

3988
02:13:05,270 --> 02:13:04,719
smoothness is a decision surface between

3989
02:13:08,229 --> 02:13:05,280
features

3990
02:13:10,069 --> 02:13:08,239
it tells me where to expect more sensory

3991
02:13:12,709 --> 02:13:10,079
data it tells me where to expect

3992
02:13:14,470 --> 02:13:12,719
certain blips on the retina or on my

3993
02:13:15,030 --> 02:13:14,480
mental retina so to speak on my mental

3994
02:13:17,270 --> 02:13:15,040
stage

3995
02:13:18,709 --> 02:13:17,280
when i imagine that object so it's

3996
02:13:19,430 --> 02:13:18,719
basically some kind of generator

3997
02:13:23,430 --> 02:13:19,440
function

3998
02:13:24,950 --> 02:13:23,440
that tells me in which way i expect the

3999
02:13:28,310 --> 02:13:24,960
features to fall

4000
02:13:30,470 --> 02:13:28,320
but it's not something where i

4001
02:13:31,430 --> 02:13:30,480
i can only see the jaggies if i expect

4002
02:13:33,189 --> 02:13:31,440
to see jaggies

4003
02:13:34,870 --> 02:13:33,199
and this can get confirmed in some way

4004
02:13:35,510 --> 02:13:34,880
right and the jaggy function the one

4005
02:13:38,310 --> 02:13:35,520
where i see

4006
02:13:40,069 --> 02:13:38,320
the aliasing or corners and so on needs

4007
02:13:41,669 --> 02:13:40,079
to have an explicit representation in a

4008
02:13:42,310 --> 02:13:41,679
certain way if this representation is

4009
02:13:46,149 --> 02:13:42,320
absent

4010
02:13:47,669 --> 02:13:46,159
then i will only see the smooth surface

4011
02:13:49,589 --> 02:13:47,679
how has your view of consciousness

4012
02:13:53,109 --> 02:13:49,599
changed in the past few years let's say

4013
02:13:57,030 --> 02:13:56,550
uh i think that i focus it's basically a

4014
02:14:00,709 --> 02:13:57,040
shift

4015
02:14:03,910 --> 02:14:00,719
away from the

4016
02:14:05,990 --> 02:14:03,920
phenomenon experience itself um to

4017
02:14:07,109 --> 02:14:06,000
uh what gives rise to the phenomenal

4018
02:14:09,589 --> 02:14:07,119
experience

4019
02:14:10,870 --> 02:14:09,599
and uh especially the way attention is

4020
02:14:14,229 --> 02:14:10,880
implemented as in

4021
02:14:16,709 --> 02:14:14,239
as opposed to control in general and

4022
02:14:18,069 --> 02:14:16,719
uh so i would say that i get closer to

4023
02:14:19,750 --> 02:14:18,079
an implementation

4024
02:14:21,350 --> 02:14:19,760
my view of the femininology of

4025
02:14:22,629 --> 02:14:21,360
consciousness i don't think has changed

4026
02:14:25,109 --> 02:14:22,639
in the last few years

4027
02:14:26,470 --> 02:14:25,119
so my phenomenology of consciousness as

4028
02:14:28,550 --> 02:14:26,480
a result of observing

4029
02:14:29,750 --> 02:14:28,560
consciousness of zooming in at different

4030
02:14:32,149 --> 02:14:29,760
layers

4031
02:14:33,430 --> 02:14:32,159
of resolution and observing altered

4032
02:14:35,589 --> 02:14:33,440
states for instance the

4033
02:14:37,510 --> 02:14:35,599
dreaming states at night and when i do

4034
02:14:38,790 --> 02:14:37,520
lucid dreaming or the hypnagogic state

4035
02:14:40,390 --> 02:14:38,800
between dreaming and waking in the

4036
02:14:42,629 --> 02:14:40,400
morning and so on

4037
02:14:43,910 --> 02:14:42,639
do you practice lucid dreaming i did

4038
02:14:46,629 --> 02:14:43,920
this in the past

4039
02:14:48,310 --> 02:14:46,639
but i don't do it systematically anymore

4040
02:14:50,550 --> 02:14:48,320
i suspect it's not functional for the

4041
02:14:53,189 --> 02:14:50,560
brain because it's in some sense like

4042
02:14:54,550 --> 02:14:53,199
inducing a trip in your brain similar to

4043
02:14:56,229 --> 02:14:54,560
taking drugs

4044
02:14:57,589 --> 02:14:56,239
uh because you are forming long-term

4045
02:14:58,390 --> 02:14:57,599
memories of things that you are not

4046
02:15:01,109 --> 02:14:58,400
meant to

4047
02:15:02,229 --> 02:15:01,119
form lentil memories about basically

4048
02:15:07,270 --> 02:15:02,239
there are several modes

4049
02:15:08,790 --> 02:15:07,280
of learning one is a simple uh

4050
02:15:10,310 --> 02:15:08,800
conceptual learning where your

4051
02:15:13,030 --> 02:15:10,320
perception doesn't change but the way

4052
02:15:14,550 --> 02:15:13,040
you relate your perception is changing

4053
02:15:16,069 --> 02:15:14,560
and there is another one where you

4054
02:15:16,629 --> 02:15:16,079
change the construction of reality

4055
02:15:20,229 --> 02:15:16,639
itself

4056
02:15:23,189 --> 02:15:20,239
the way that you construe reality and uh

4057
02:15:24,390 --> 02:15:23,199
if you go to this level uh if you also

4058
02:15:26,310 --> 02:15:24,400
change the way you relate to the

4059
02:15:28,229 --> 02:15:26,320
environments you need to deconstruct or

4060
02:15:30,310 --> 02:15:28,239
suspend yourself and your agency and the

4061
02:15:32,149 --> 02:15:30,320
boundary between self and universe

4062
02:15:33,990 --> 02:15:32,159
and i suspect that's uh one of the

4063
02:15:35,510 --> 02:15:34,000
reasons why we have these dream states

4064
02:15:37,990 --> 02:15:35,520
in which we don't react

4065
02:15:39,669 --> 02:15:38,000
or interact with reality itself right i

4066
02:15:41,990 --> 02:15:39,679
remember you saying that dreams might be

4067
02:15:43,750 --> 02:15:42,000
something akin to generative adversarial

4068
02:15:44,790 --> 02:15:43,760
networks and i'm curious to explore that

4069
02:15:45,910 --> 02:15:44,800
what do you mean how does that come

4070
02:15:50,470 --> 02:15:45,920
about

4071
02:15:52,950 --> 02:15:50,480
so in some sense we are producing um

4072
02:15:54,470 --> 02:15:52,960
hypothetical realities that can predict

4073
02:15:56,149 --> 02:15:54,480
sensory patterns

4074
02:15:57,750 --> 02:15:56,159
and we have a system that acts as a

4075
02:16:01,109 --> 02:15:57,760
discriminator that

4076
02:16:01,910 --> 02:16:01,119
tunes these generations of degenerative

4077
02:16:03,910 --> 02:16:01,920
functions

4078
02:16:05,030 --> 02:16:03,920
to see whether they are able to explain

4079
02:16:06,709 --> 02:16:05,040
sensory data

4080
02:16:08,790 --> 02:16:06,719
and the most important discriminator is

4081
02:16:12,069 --> 02:16:08,800
your perceptual apparatus that is

4082
02:16:14,629 --> 02:16:12,079
uh connected to your sensory input

4083
02:16:15,350 --> 02:16:14,639
that is your retina your cochlea and so

4084
02:16:17,030 --> 02:16:15,360
on so

4085
02:16:18,950 --> 02:16:17,040
by enlarge your thylamos which is the

4086
02:16:20,629 --> 02:16:18,960
big switchboard that connects

4087
02:16:22,550 --> 02:16:20,639
the different brain regions and your

4088
02:16:25,189 --> 02:16:22,560
sensory input

4089
02:16:27,270 --> 02:16:25,199
so and in some sense your imagination is

4090
02:16:30,470 --> 02:16:27,280
being used to predict sensory data

4091
02:16:32,070 --> 02:16:30,480
and the set of functions that is closely

4092
02:16:34,549 --> 02:16:32,080
predicting the next batch of sensory

4093
02:16:36,629 --> 02:16:34,559
data is what you experience as reality

4094
02:16:39,270 --> 02:16:36,639
but it's a dream every experience of

4095
02:16:41,110 --> 02:16:39,280
reality is in some sense a dream state

4096
02:16:42,709 --> 02:16:41,120
and the dream states at night are

4097
02:16:43,750 --> 02:16:42,719
different from the green states during

4098
02:16:46,790 --> 02:16:43,760
the day

4099
02:16:49,190 --> 02:16:46,800
mostly in two aspects one is in

4100
02:16:51,270 --> 02:16:49,200
if you unless you do lucid dreaming you

4101
02:16:53,110 --> 02:16:51,280
don't have a consistent sense of agency

4102
02:16:54,709 --> 02:16:53,120
which means you cannot recall who you

4103
02:16:55,910 --> 02:16:54,719
are and you cannot really direct your

4104
02:16:57,589 --> 02:16:55,920
attention in any way

4105
02:16:59,270 --> 02:16:57,599
there is no subject involved there might

4106
02:17:01,429 --> 02:16:59,280
be a story about a subject

4107
02:17:03,830 --> 02:17:01,439
but the subject is not doing things that

4108
02:17:05,750 --> 02:17:03,840
can be controlled by the subject

4109
02:17:07,830 --> 02:17:05,760
and in the lucid dream you bring this

4110
02:17:09,349 --> 02:17:07,840
agent online you gain a sense of agency

4111
02:17:11,190 --> 02:17:09,359
and the sense of control

4112
02:17:13,270 --> 02:17:11,200
can direct your attention according to

4113
02:17:15,110 --> 02:17:13,280
control parameters right this means now

4114
02:17:16,790 --> 02:17:15,120
you have a system that is exerting

4115
02:17:19,509 --> 02:17:16,800
control based on

4116
02:17:21,110 --> 02:17:19,519
uh the expectation of maximizing some

4117
02:17:23,509 --> 02:17:21,120
kind of reward and some of the

4118
02:17:26,309 --> 02:17:23,519
dimensions that your mind cares about

4119
02:17:28,150 --> 02:17:26,319
and uh but at night the second thing

4120
02:17:29,910 --> 02:17:28,160
that happens beside the agency is you

4121
02:17:30,709 --> 02:17:29,920
are no longer in touch with your sensory

4122
02:17:32,629 --> 02:17:30,719
apparatus

4123
02:17:34,790 --> 02:17:32,639
so you have no way to access what's

4124
02:17:37,830 --> 02:17:34,800
happening on your retina anymore

4125
02:17:40,549 --> 02:17:37,840
in the external world yes so uh

4126
02:17:41,990 --> 02:17:40,559
everything that plays in your cortex

4127
02:17:44,870 --> 02:17:42,000
plays out on your cortex

4128
02:17:47,110 --> 02:17:44,880
is now originating in your cortex there

4129
02:17:47,910 --> 02:17:47,120
is some slight interference with the

4130
02:17:50,790 --> 02:17:47,920
sensation

4131
02:17:51,669 --> 02:17:50,800
of color or whether you need to urinate

4132
02:17:53,589 --> 02:17:51,679
or smell

4133
02:17:55,349 --> 02:17:53,599
smell translates relatively well into

4134
02:17:57,270 --> 02:17:55,359
dreams for most people

4135
02:17:59,190 --> 02:17:57,280
but by and large you cannot sense what

4136
02:18:01,110 --> 02:17:59,200
happens in the outside world

4137
02:18:03,030 --> 02:18:01,120
and this is not going to enter your

4138
02:18:03,830 --> 02:18:03,040
dreams in any consistent way instead you

4139
02:18:05,830 --> 02:18:03,840
are only

4140
02:18:07,190 --> 02:18:05,840
going to use your mental representations

4141
02:18:09,750 --> 02:18:07,200
to make sense of other mental

4142
02:18:12,309 --> 02:18:09,760
representations

4143
02:18:14,150 --> 02:18:12,319
if dreams are for learning why is it

4144
02:18:17,110 --> 02:18:14,160
that we don't remember them why does it

4145
02:18:19,349 --> 02:18:17,120
go away uh it's largely because dreams

4146
02:18:22,389 --> 02:18:19,359
play out as situations

4147
02:18:23,830 --> 02:18:22,399
uh of things that has never happened but

4148
02:18:25,030 --> 02:18:23,840
we do that all the time in our own head

4149
02:18:26,549 --> 02:18:25,040
when we're just thinking about

4150
02:18:27,750 --> 02:18:26,559
speaking to someone like a boss like

4151
02:18:29,270 --> 02:18:27,760
what am i going to say to that boss how

4152
02:18:31,429 --> 02:18:29,280
do i get a raise how do i get

4153
02:18:33,349 --> 02:18:31,439
not get fired yes but all these things

4154
02:18:35,429 --> 02:18:33,359
are prefaced as this doesn't happen

4155
02:18:37,349 --> 02:18:35,439
this is an imagination of an imaginary

4156
02:18:38,870 --> 02:18:37,359
situation i'm playing out the following

4157
02:18:42,469 --> 02:18:38,880
things

4158
02:18:43,830 --> 02:18:42,479
in the following way

4159
02:18:45,669 --> 02:18:43,840
and then you can compare them with

4160
02:18:47,349 --> 02:18:45,679
reality and you can use this to tune

4161
02:18:48,070 --> 02:18:47,359
your imagination to make it better next

4162
02:18:49,750 --> 02:18:48,080
time

4163
02:18:52,309 --> 02:18:49,760
whereas in a dream your construction of

4164
02:18:54,150 --> 02:18:52,319
reality itself is changed for instance

4165
02:18:55,750 --> 02:18:54,160
you see objects from perspectives that

4166
02:18:57,270 --> 02:18:55,760
you've never seen them from

4167
02:18:59,349 --> 02:18:57,280
you might be have a flying dream as a

4168
02:19:00,469 --> 02:18:59,359
result right you see the world from top

4169
02:19:03,110 --> 02:19:00,479
down perspective

4170
02:19:04,790 --> 02:19:03,120
and as a child i think many children

4171
02:19:06,309 --> 02:19:04,800
have playing dreams for that reason that

4172
02:19:08,950 --> 02:19:06,319
basically your brain is generating new

4173
02:19:10,469 --> 02:19:08,960
perspectives of known objects

4174
02:19:12,469 --> 02:19:10,479
and so you can recognize them from these

4175
02:19:13,910 --> 02:19:12,479
new perspectives that's uh

4176
02:19:15,830 --> 02:19:13,920
it's very useful but it's not very

4177
02:19:17,910 --> 02:19:15,840
useful to remember that you can fly

4178
02:19:19,589 --> 02:19:17,920
because you can't do you know of any

4179
02:19:21,830 --> 02:19:19,599
studies that have been done

4180
02:19:24,469 --> 02:19:21,840
about people who can recall their dreams

4181
02:19:27,190 --> 02:19:24,479
versus people who can't and if they

4182
02:19:27,669 --> 02:19:27,200
report higher life satisfaction if any

4183
02:19:32,070 --> 02:19:27,679
of those

4184
02:19:34,309 --> 02:19:32,080
groups no i'm unaware of that

4185
02:19:35,990 --> 02:19:34,319
so i don't know how uh if people that

4186
02:19:38,790 --> 02:19:36,000
you can recall their dreams

4187
02:19:39,110 --> 02:19:38,800
are happier than people that can't and

4188
02:19:42,469 --> 02:19:39,120
uh

4189
02:19:44,709 --> 02:19:42,479
to

4190
02:19:46,469 --> 02:19:44,719
change the equilibrium of most people

4191
02:19:48,150 --> 02:19:46,479
that cannot recall their dreams

4192
02:19:50,309 --> 02:19:48,160
in such a way that they can or to wake

4193
02:19:51,830 --> 02:19:50,319
them up at the right moment and

4194
02:19:53,590 --> 02:19:51,840
that they will be able to remember their

4195
02:19:55,910 --> 02:19:53,600
dreams if you uh

4196
02:19:57,590 --> 02:19:55,920
wake them up during ram faces but i'm

4197
02:19:58,389 --> 02:19:57,600
unaware of these studies i'm not a steve

4198
02:20:02,070 --> 02:19:58,399
scientist

4199
02:20:04,469 --> 02:20:02,080
if if all we did was dream is that real

4200
02:20:06,950 --> 02:20:04,479
well all we do is dream in a way right

4201
02:20:09,349 --> 02:20:06,960
so every perception of reality is a

4202
02:20:11,750 --> 02:20:09,359
trans state it's a dream state

4203
02:20:12,870 --> 02:20:11,760
there is no reality that is it can be

4204
02:20:15,910 --> 02:20:12,880
sensed

4205
02:20:18,630 --> 02:20:15,920
it's only this vr that you are

4206
02:20:21,030 --> 02:20:18,640
entrenched to believing that it's real

4207
02:20:22,469 --> 02:20:21,040
it's a movie that your mind is showing

4208
02:20:24,150 --> 02:20:22,479
to the self and the

4209
02:20:25,990 --> 02:20:24,160
self is recording in some sense what

4210
02:20:27,990 --> 02:20:26,000
happens at its boundary

4211
02:20:30,389 --> 02:20:28,000
with this intentional protocol and we

4212
02:20:31,670 --> 02:20:30,399
can uh partially recreate these binding

4213
02:20:33,750 --> 02:20:31,680
states later on

4214
02:20:35,830 --> 02:20:33,760
as the memories of states that you think

4215
02:20:37,910 --> 02:20:35,840
you have been conscious of

4216
02:20:39,429 --> 02:20:37,920
and this is all there is this is only

4217
02:20:41,429 --> 02:20:39,439
the stream

4218
02:20:42,790 --> 02:20:41,439
let's end this on a positive note with

4219
02:20:44,550 --> 02:20:42,800
you saying

4220
02:20:46,630 --> 02:20:44,560
with you telling people how like almost

4221
02:20:48,469 --> 02:20:46,640
instructionally how is it that

4222
02:20:50,070 --> 02:20:48,479
from your insights from what you've said

4223
02:20:51,750 --> 02:20:50,080
how do you get from that

4224
02:20:54,070 --> 02:20:51,760
to then changing your mind so that you

4225
02:20:55,750 --> 02:20:54,080
experience positive emotion or at least

4226
02:20:58,630 --> 02:20:55,760
a negation of negative emotion there's

4227
02:21:00,309 --> 02:20:58,640
none an absence of it

4228
02:21:02,630 --> 02:21:00,319
i don't think that you should sort

4229
02:21:04,710 --> 02:21:02,640
emotions into positive and negative ones

4230
02:21:07,270 --> 02:21:04,720
i think that you should look uh whether

4231
02:21:09,349 --> 02:21:07,280
your emotions are helpful or unhelpful

4232
02:21:10,870 --> 02:21:09,359
and you should have the most appropriate

4233
02:21:12,550 --> 02:21:10,880
and helpful emotions that you can have

4234
02:21:13,270 --> 02:21:12,560
not the most positive emotions that you

4235
02:21:16,550 --> 02:21:13,280
can have

4236
02:21:18,950 --> 02:21:16,560
the purpose of life is not to

4237
02:21:20,710 --> 02:21:18,960
be happy in a sense that you should be

4238
02:21:22,710 --> 02:21:20,720
in a state of constant bliss

4239
02:21:24,309 --> 02:21:22,720
you should be able to achieve the things

4240
02:21:27,349 --> 02:21:24,319
that matter to you

4241
02:21:29,750 --> 02:21:27,359
and the emotions help you for that so

4242
02:21:31,270 --> 02:21:29,760
uh but see you should check whether uh

4243
02:21:33,030 --> 02:21:31,280
your emotions for instance

4244
02:21:34,309 --> 02:21:33,040
express ruminations which means you

4245
02:21:35,910 --> 02:21:34,319
might be caught in a loop that is

4246
02:21:38,630 --> 02:21:35,920
unproductive and you're just

4247
02:21:39,990 --> 02:21:38,640
veering a groove in your mind rather

4248
02:21:41,349 --> 02:21:40,000
than making progress

4249
02:21:43,110 --> 02:21:41,359
you should see whether you are suffering

4250
02:21:44,150 --> 02:21:43,120
which is usually a result of you trying

4251
02:21:45,830 --> 02:21:44,160
to change something

4252
02:21:46,870 --> 02:21:45,840
that you cannot actually control at

4253
02:21:48,550 --> 02:21:46,880
least not in the way that you're

4254
02:21:50,150 --> 02:21:48,560
currently trying it

4255
02:21:51,910 --> 02:21:50,160
right so this is what you should be

4256
02:21:54,469 --> 02:21:51,920
monitoring you should monitor

4257
02:21:56,710 --> 02:21:54,479
the trajectory of your emotions and see

4258
02:21:59,429 --> 02:21:56,720
whether they are still helpful

4259
02:22:00,710 --> 02:21:59,439
but they're your tools and just turning

4260
02:22:03,429 --> 02:22:00,720
your tools into

4261
02:22:05,190 --> 02:22:03,439
something that only gives you one site

4262
02:22:07,349 --> 02:22:05,200
is not helpful

4263
02:22:10,950 --> 02:22:07,359
so how do you control your tools to make

4264
02:22:14,790 --> 02:22:13,670
it seems like you do this or do you

4265
02:22:17,830 --> 02:22:14,800
struggle with this

4266
02:22:19,830 --> 02:22:17,840
the best person to ask

4267
02:22:21,750 --> 02:22:19,840
okay here's one of the reasons why i ask

4268
02:22:23,190 --> 02:22:21,760
when i see you you're extremely positive

4269
02:22:24,230 --> 02:22:23,200
and most cognitive scientists that i

4270
02:22:26,150 --> 02:22:24,240
talk to they're neutral

4271
02:22:27,910 --> 02:22:26,160
neutral to positive and you're almost

4272
02:22:29,670 --> 02:22:27,920
always happy

4273
02:22:31,510 --> 02:22:29,680
it seems like you're in you're not

4274
02:22:32,150 --> 02:22:31,520
perturbed you're not easily perturbed

4275
02:22:37,510 --> 02:22:32,160
you're

4276
02:22:38,630 --> 02:22:37,520
no i think it's a useful state for

4277
02:22:40,790 --> 02:22:38,640
communication

4278
02:22:42,710 --> 02:22:40,800
and a lot of people that have to

4279
02:22:44,070 --> 02:22:42,720
maintain an academic position find it

4280
02:22:46,150 --> 02:22:44,080
extremely useful to

4281
02:22:48,150 --> 02:22:46,160
uh look like a professor right it's a

4282
02:22:50,630 --> 02:22:48,160
culture you have to

4283
02:22:51,349 --> 02:22:50,640
maintain a certain gravitas if you uh

4284
02:22:54,150 --> 02:22:51,359
come across

4285
02:22:55,429 --> 02:22:54,160
as a a friendly person uh or as a

4286
02:22:57,830 --> 02:22:55,439
humorous person

4287
02:22:59,510 --> 02:22:57,840
uh that might limit your impact and with

4288
02:23:01,429 --> 02:22:59,520
certain audiences right are you really

4289
02:23:02,070 --> 02:23:01,439
the person that deserves this funding if

4290
02:23:04,950 --> 02:23:02,080
you

4291
02:23:07,270 --> 02:23:04,960
uh are goofy in some way right yeah so

4292
02:23:10,389 --> 02:23:07,280
uh of course i don't want to be goofy

4293
02:23:11,830 --> 02:23:10,399
but i also don't want to scare you and i

4294
02:23:15,190 --> 02:23:11,840
want us to

4295
02:23:18,469 --> 02:23:15,200
uh have a straightforward uh friendly

4296
02:23:20,550 --> 02:23:18,479
um and maybe even loving conversation so

4297
02:23:22,870 --> 02:23:20,560
i'm trying to open myself to you and i

4298
02:23:23,910 --> 02:23:22,880
try to build a personal relationship and

4299
02:23:27,110 --> 02:23:23,920
i find that

4300
02:23:28,950 --> 02:23:27,120
uh kindness and friendliness and humor

4301
02:23:31,830 --> 02:23:28,960
are useful tools for that

4302
02:23:33,910 --> 02:23:31,840
i also find that humor is often a useful

4303
02:23:36,550 --> 02:23:33,920
tool to deal with your own suffering

4304
02:23:39,429 --> 02:23:36,560
and kindness and friendliness so instead

4305
02:23:41,830 --> 02:23:39,439
of basically using graphness to

4306
02:23:43,429 --> 02:23:41,840
enter your suffering that is typically

4307
02:23:45,670 --> 02:23:43,439
something that pushes you out of the

4308
02:23:48,710 --> 02:23:45,680
area which you would need to deal with

4309
02:23:49,510 --> 02:23:48,720
and humor is sometimes a tool that

4310
02:23:51,750 --> 02:23:49,520
allows you to

4311
02:23:53,510 --> 02:23:51,760
make an area of your mind that you have

4312
02:23:56,469 --> 02:23:53,520
to explore because you need to repair it

4313
02:24:00,230 --> 02:23:58,469
is there any principle that's higher

4314
02:24:02,230 --> 02:24:00,240
that's worth dying for so far

4315
02:24:03,670 --> 02:24:02,240
like it sounds vague but for example you

4316
02:24:05,510 --> 02:24:03,680
mentioned that the machines

4317
02:24:06,790 --> 02:24:05,520
will likely win or let's imagine there's

4318
02:24:07,990 --> 02:24:06,800
a scenario where they win let's just

4319
02:24:09,510 --> 02:24:08,000
hypothetical

4320
02:24:11,590 --> 02:24:09,520
then merging with them if we want to

4321
02:24:13,590 --> 02:24:11,600
survive is what we should do

4322
02:24:15,190 --> 02:24:13,600
but is surviving what we should do what

4323
02:24:16,550 --> 02:24:15,200
if the machines win and part of the

4324
02:24:19,510 --> 02:24:16,560
machine's goal is to take over

4325
02:24:20,790 --> 02:24:19,520
the entire planet i know we've done that

4326
02:24:23,670 --> 02:24:20,800
but let's say they do it in a

4327
02:24:24,309 --> 02:24:23,680
in a way that causes excruciation for

4328
02:24:26,389 --> 02:24:24,319
most of

4329
02:24:27,670 --> 02:24:26,399
life but we say well we want to live so

4330
02:24:29,910 --> 02:24:27,680
let's merge with them

4331
02:24:30,950 --> 02:24:29,920
should we do that is there something

4332
02:24:33,910 --> 02:24:30,960
else

4333
02:24:36,150 --> 02:24:33,920
that's more important than simply

4334
02:24:38,150 --> 02:24:36,160
propagating

4335
02:24:40,790 --> 02:24:38,160
i think that something can only be

4336
02:24:42,790 --> 02:24:40,800
important if the mind makes it so

4337
02:24:44,070 --> 02:24:42,800
the physical universe by itself has no

4338
02:24:45,910 --> 02:24:44,080
importance whatsoever

4339
02:24:47,270 --> 02:24:45,920
life by itself has no importance

4340
02:24:50,389 --> 02:24:47,280
whatsoever

4341
02:24:52,630 --> 02:24:50,399
uh from the perspectives uh

4342
02:24:54,469 --> 02:24:52,640
that my own statistics give me i think

4343
02:24:56,790 --> 02:24:54,479
complexity is valuable

4344
02:24:59,429 --> 02:24:56,800
and mainly maintaining complexity over

4345
02:25:02,870 --> 02:24:59,439
long time spans is desirable

4346
02:25:03,670 --> 02:25:02,880
and so basically having a state in which

4347
02:25:06,630 --> 02:25:03,680
you

4348
02:25:08,630 --> 02:25:06,640
see the continuation of life at high

4349
02:25:10,630 --> 02:25:08,640
complexity on this planet

4350
02:25:12,070 --> 02:25:10,640
seems to be a desirable thing to me on

4351
02:25:14,389 --> 02:25:12,080
the other hand life

4352
02:25:15,750 --> 02:25:14,399
is excruciating for most conscious

4353
02:25:18,230 --> 02:25:15,760
beings

4354
02:25:19,110 --> 02:25:18,240
for most of the time in some sense

4355
02:25:21,750 --> 02:25:19,120
existence is

4356
02:25:23,429 --> 02:25:21,760
by itself not necessarily pleasant if

4357
02:25:25,270 --> 02:25:23,439
it's consciously experienced

4358
02:25:26,790 --> 02:25:25,280
even though it's a constructed thing by

4359
02:25:28,790 --> 02:25:26,800
the mind itself

4360
02:25:30,710 --> 02:25:28,800
and so i don't have an absolute answer

4361
02:25:32,550 --> 02:25:30,720
to questions like this they only need to

4362
02:25:34,710 --> 02:25:32,560
be framed by a certain context

4363
02:25:36,950 --> 02:25:34,720
in the context of having children i will

4364
02:25:38,550 --> 02:25:36,960
give you a very different answer than

4365
02:25:41,190 --> 02:25:38,560
by the context of looking at the

4366
02:25:43,190 --> 02:25:41,200
planetary ecosystem

4367
02:25:44,790 --> 02:25:43,200
right so uh depending on on that

4368
02:25:46,710 --> 02:25:44,800
particular context for instance

4369
02:25:48,469 --> 02:25:46,720
what do i wish for my children or what

4370
02:25:51,590 --> 02:25:48,479
do i wish for my friends

4371
02:25:52,950 --> 02:25:51,600
how they should explore existence or

4372
02:25:59,190 --> 02:25:52,960
what do i wish for

4373
02:26:02,150 --> 02:25:59,200
ecosystem that i'm part of

4374
02:26:04,150 --> 02:26:02,160
these are uh very specific questions and

4375
02:26:07,030 --> 02:26:04,160
for these specific questions

4376
02:26:09,030 --> 02:26:07,040
no yeah of course they are and in some

4377
02:26:10,710 --> 02:26:09,040
sense ethics is about the negotiation

4378
02:26:13,429 --> 02:26:10,720
between these conflicts

4379
02:26:13,830 --> 02:26:13,439
but they all are predicated by a choice

4380
02:26:15,750 --> 02:26:13,840
that you

4381
02:26:17,510 --> 02:26:15,760
need to make in the beginning the choice

4382
02:26:19,429 --> 02:26:17,520
of what is important to you

4383
02:26:21,110 --> 02:26:19,439
and initially we don't make that choice

4384
02:26:22,230 --> 02:26:21,120
because we have innate choices that

4385
02:26:24,950 --> 02:26:22,240
evolution has

4386
02:26:26,389 --> 02:26:24,960
done for us and that are solidified in

4387
02:26:27,910 --> 02:26:26,399
our interaction with the social

4388
02:26:30,150 --> 02:26:27,920
environment and so on

4389
02:26:31,190 --> 02:26:30,160
but eventually we get to the point where

4390
02:26:32,950 --> 02:26:31,200
we get

4391
02:26:34,870 --> 02:26:32,960
agency over these choices and where we

4392
02:26:36,630 --> 02:26:34,880
can deconstruct them

4393
02:26:38,950 --> 02:26:36,640
and then the answers become complicated

4394
02:26:39,830 --> 02:26:38,960
and there is not a single answer because

4395
02:26:42,150 --> 02:26:39,840
the answer

4396
02:26:43,110 --> 02:26:42,160
obviously depends on the system that you

4397
02:26:46,230 --> 02:26:43,120
are

4398
02:26:46,950 --> 02:26:46,240
right if you become a machine so to

4399
02:26:50,070 --> 02:26:46,960
speak if you

4400
02:26:51,670 --> 02:26:50,080
uh identify with a different system

4401
02:26:53,910 --> 02:26:51,680
uh for instance in this way that the

4402
02:26:54,950 --> 02:26:53,920
dalai lama identifies as a form of

4403
02:26:58,070 --> 02:26:54,960
government

4404
02:27:00,550 --> 02:26:58,080
as an institution a thing that

4405
02:27:01,670 --> 02:27:00,560
or the queen to some degree identifies

4406
02:27:04,070 --> 02:27:01,680
with the crown

4407
02:27:05,990 --> 02:27:04,080
which is an institution it limits her

4408
02:27:07,030 --> 02:27:06,000
actions as a human being the queen is

4409
02:27:08,790 --> 02:27:07,040
not free to do

4410
02:27:10,150 --> 02:27:08,800
what you and me are doing the dalai lama

4411
02:27:10,790 --> 02:27:10,160
is not free to do what you and me are

4412
02:27:12,309 --> 02:27:10,800
doing

4413
02:27:14,790 --> 02:27:12,319
because he operates on different

4414
02:27:18,230 --> 02:27:14,800
constraints right these constraints

4415
02:27:19,830 --> 02:27:18,240
give him both more agency and

4416
02:27:22,630 --> 02:27:19,840
fewer degrees of freedom in a certain

4417
02:27:24,070 --> 02:27:22,640
way and they also free him from worrying

4418
02:27:25,830 --> 02:27:24,080
about certain things because

4419
02:27:27,349 --> 02:27:25,840
to the degree that you identify for

4420
02:27:29,270 --> 02:27:27,359
instance with your family

4421
02:27:31,270 --> 02:27:29,280
you are free to worry about your own

4422
02:27:33,190 --> 02:27:31,280
individuality within the family

4423
02:27:34,309 --> 02:27:33,200
to the degree that you identify with an

4424
02:27:36,950 --> 02:27:34,319
ideology you can

4425
02:27:38,790 --> 02:27:36,960
disidentify with your personal ideas to

4426
02:27:42,389 --> 02:27:38,800
the degree that you identify

4427
02:27:45,190 --> 02:27:42,399
with being a form of governance for a

4428
02:27:46,710 --> 02:27:45,200
group of beings you can identify with

4429
02:27:48,309 --> 02:27:46,720
this single individual that you are and

4430
02:27:48,790 --> 02:27:48,319
it doesn't really matter if you die as

4431
02:27:51,190 --> 02:27:48,800
long

4432
02:27:53,110 --> 02:27:51,200
as you are reborn this form of

4433
02:27:54,950 --> 02:27:53,120
government in a new individual that is

4434
02:27:56,389 --> 02:27:54,960
performing the role as well as you can

4435
02:27:59,349 --> 02:27:56,399
or even better maybe

4436
02:28:01,270 --> 02:27:59,359
right so this who am i what is this

4437
02:28:04,630 --> 02:28:01,280
thing that i stand for what is it that i

4438
02:28:06,469 --> 02:28:04,640
identify as is not necessarily related

4439
02:28:07,990 --> 02:28:06,479
to the substrate very tightly

4440
02:28:09,990 --> 02:28:08,000
the same way as the software does not

4441
02:28:10,950 --> 02:28:10,000
need to identify with the hardware that

4442
02:28:12,870 --> 02:28:10,960
it runs on

4443
02:28:14,389 --> 02:28:12,880
you are not identified with your brain

4444
02:28:15,429 --> 02:28:14,399
you are identified with the things that

4445
02:28:17,349 --> 02:28:15,439
you care about

4446
02:28:19,349 --> 02:28:17,359
and as soon as you get agency over what

4447
02:28:20,790 --> 02:28:19,359
you care about you can say that the

4448
02:28:22,309 --> 02:28:20,800
choices that you make are more or less

4449
02:28:23,670 --> 02:28:22,319
consistent with each other

4450
02:28:25,429 --> 02:28:23,680
and they are more or less compatible

4451
02:28:28,070 --> 02:28:25,439
with the choices that others make

4452
02:28:30,870 --> 02:28:28,080
but there is no absolute answer anymore

4453
02:28:34,070 --> 02:28:30,880
what do you identify as

4454
02:28:36,150 --> 02:28:34,080
it depends i am not identified as the

4455
02:28:40,389 --> 02:28:36,160
same thing in every state

4456
02:28:42,950 --> 02:28:40,399
and sometimes i identify as a father

4457
02:28:44,710 --> 02:28:42,960
and sometimes as a lover sometimes as a

4458
02:28:47,750 --> 02:28:44,720
partner as a friend

4459
02:28:48,230 --> 02:28:47,760
as a coworker uh as uh somebody who

4460
02:28:49,910 --> 02:28:48,240
thinks

4461
02:28:51,510 --> 02:28:49,920
as somebody who struggles as somebody

4462
02:28:53,910 --> 02:28:51,520
who doesn't want to live anymore

4463
02:28:55,830 --> 02:28:53,920
somebody who wants to get some sleep and

4464
02:28:56,309 --> 02:28:55,840
nothing is as important as that and so

4465
02:28:58,950 --> 02:28:56,319
on

4466
02:29:01,110 --> 02:28:58,960
who doesn't want to live anymore because

4467
02:29:02,630 --> 02:29:01,120
i'm curious what if someone says

4468
02:29:04,230 --> 02:29:02,640
i think what's most important is the

4469
02:29:05,750 --> 02:29:04,240
destruction of life i don't think it's

4470
02:29:07,429 --> 02:29:05,760
worth it i think that the amount of

4471
02:29:08,630 --> 02:29:07,439
suffering is not worth the pleasure

4472
02:29:10,389 --> 02:29:08,640
and you're saying that objectively

4473
02:29:12,070 --> 02:29:10,399
there's nothing wrong with that so what

4474
02:29:15,590 --> 02:29:12,080
if they come to that conclusion

4475
02:29:18,070 --> 02:29:15,600
and they pursue it is there

4476
02:29:19,590 --> 02:29:18,080
yeah what if they do that that just it

4477
02:29:21,670 --> 02:29:19,600
sounds like it's objectively

4478
02:29:23,270 --> 02:29:21,680
wrong but you're saying uh that's fine

4479
02:29:27,110 --> 02:29:23,280
just pursue what you want as long as

4480
02:29:31,910 --> 02:29:30,309
so yes uh i can only object to this to

4481
02:29:34,790 --> 02:29:31,920
the degree that it is

4482
02:29:36,469 --> 02:29:34,800
conflicting with my own goals and for

4483
02:29:39,590 --> 02:29:36,479
most people that would be the case and

4484
02:29:40,550 --> 02:29:39,600
so they legitimately would uh give

4485
02:29:42,309 --> 02:29:40,560
opposition

4486
02:29:43,910 --> 02:29:42,319
there's also this issue it's very very

4487
02:29:46,790 --> 02:29:43,920
hard to sterilize a planet

4488
02:29:48,309 --> 02:29:46,800
life is extremely resilient even let's

4489
02:29:49,510 --> 02:29:48,319
just say they dislike humans because

4490
02:29:50,630 --> 02:29:49,520
humans are the ones that have betrayed

4491
02:29:52,309 --> 02:29:50,640
them in the past

4492
02:29:53,990 --> 02:29:52,319
yeah the humans are going to take care

4493
02:29:55,910 --> 02:29:54,000
of themselves at some point right this

4494
02:29:58,469 --> 02:29:55,920
species is not immortal

4495
02:30:00,150 --> 02:29:58,479
uh we might already be on the way out

4496
02:30:00,550 --> 02:30:00,160
and of course there are individuals

4497
02:30:03,990 --> 02:30:00,560
which

4498
02:30:07,349 --> 02:30:04,000
um the individual might fall

4499
02:30:10,630 --> 02:30:07,359
out of this and uh

4500
02:30:13,990 --> 02:30:10,640
peterson describes this as uh the

4501
02:30:16,790 --> 02:30:14,000
uh school shooter got angry at god right

4502
02:30:18,469 --> 02:30:16,800
and uh i think that god in in this way

4503
02:30:19,110 --> 02:30:18,479
that peterson has been using it in this

4504
02:30:22,469 --> 02:30:19,120
sentence

4505
02:30:24,389 --> 02:30:22,479
is the uh platonic form of the

4506
02:30:25,830 --> 02:30:24,399
civilization that somebody is part of

4507
02:30:26,710 --> 02:30:25,840
it's the greater whole seen as a

4508
02:30:28,550 --> 02:30:26,720
sentient agent

4509
02:30:30,550 --> 02:30:28,560
the relationship of this individual to

4510
02:30:31,990 --> 02:30:30,560
this god is the relationship that the

4511
02:30:35,110 --> 02:30:32,000
cell has to the organism

4512
02:30:38,150 --> 02:30:35,120
and are you a plaintiff no

4513
02:30:39,429 --> 02:30:38,160
but uh so in some sense there is an uh a

4514
02:30:41,670 --> 02:30:39,439
practical sense in which i'm

4515
02:30:43,190 --> 02:30:41,680
a platonist but i'm not a platonist in

4516
02:30:45,910 --> 02:30:43,200
the intellectual sense

4517
02:30:47,190 --> 02:30:45,920
so i don't think that these categories

4518
02:30:48,870 --> 02:30:47,200
exist

4519
02:30:50,469 --> 02:30:48,880
beyond being more or less coherent

4520
02:30:54,150 --> 02:30:50,479
models but

4521
02:30:55,510 --> 02:30:54,160
i think that as a learning system i

4522
02:30:57,349 --> 02:30:55,520
i need to believe that there is

4523
02:30:59,349 --> 02:30:57,359
something at the end of the gradient

4524
02:31:00,790 --> 02:30:59,359
right there is going to be a certain

4525
02:31:02,870 --> 02:31:00,800
model that i can approximate that

4526
02:31:05,270 --> 02:31:02,880
describes reality optimally well

4527
02:31:07,349 --> 02:31:05,280
given my resources and starting point

4528
02:31:08,950 --> 02:31:07,359
and in this sense i have a strong

4529
02:31:10,790 --> 02:31:08,960
experience of platonism that these

4530
02:31:13,030 --> 02:31:10,800
categories are real and

4531
02:31:15,030 --> 02:31:13,040
so in this context it seems that we are

4532
02:31:17,590 --> 02:31:15,040
a state-building species we are not in

4533
02:31:19,030 --> 02:31:17,600
species of solitary individuals unless

4534
02:31:21,590 --> 02:31:19,040
you are a sociopath

4535
02:31:23,349 --> 02:31:21,600
that is does not have any sense for a

4536
02:31:24,309 --> 02:31:23,359
greater whole and most of us have this

4537
02:31:27,190 --> 02:31:24,319
sense of

4538
02:31:28,710 --> 02:31:27,200
feeling that we are functionally part of

4539
02:31:31,750 --> 02:31:28,720
something that is more important than

4540
02:31:33,190 --> 02:31:31,760
us as an individual and this would be

4541
02:31:35,190 --> 02:31:33,200
the implementation that you would need

4542
02:31:36,870 --> 02:31:35,200
to give a cell if the cell was conscious

4543
02:31:38,309 --> 02:31:36,880
and was able to make sense of its

4544
02:31:40,150 --> 02:31:38,319
relationship to the environment

4545
02:31:41,990 --> 02:31:40,160
if the cell is part of an organism and

4546
02:31:44,309 --> 02:31:42,000
not a single cell organism

4547
02:31:45,270 --> 02:31:44,319
if you as organisms don't actually exist

4548
02:31:47,349 --> 02:31:45,280
right

4549
02:31:48,710 --> 02:31:47,359
organisms are away to think of large

4550
02:31:51,910 --> 02:31:48,720
groups of cells

4551
02:31:54,550 --> 02:31:51,920
that act as part of a greater whole

4552
02:31:55,830 --> 02:31:54,560
they act sorry when you say organisms

4553
02:31:57,270 --> 02:31:55,840
don't exist you mean to say that they're

4554
02:31:59,110 --> 02:31:57,280
just a collection of molecules that move

4555
02:32:01,750 --> 02:31:59,120
in a particular way and we model them

4556
02:32:03,590 --> 02:32:01,760
as organisms an organism is a function

4557
02:32:05,030 --> 02:32:03,600
that describes the interaction between a

4558
02:32:06,550 --> 02:32:05,040
group of cells

4559
02:32:08,950 --> 02:32:06,560
and it's a function that is different

4560
02:32:11,110 --> 02:32:08,960
from a bunch of cells because it

4561
02:32:13,110 --> 02:32:11,120
says that some of the cells are not

4562
02:32:14,389 --> 02:32:13,120
helpful to the organism rate is a

4563
02:32:17,030 --> 02:32:14,399
function that describes

4564
02:32:18,790 --> 02:32:17,040
a control structure there are cells

4565
02:32:20,790 --> 02:32:18,800
which don't belong to the organism even

4566
02:32:23,429 --> 02:32:20,800
though they are in the same region

4567
02:32:24,389 --> 02:32:23,439
and some of these cells even share the

4568
02:32:25,910 --> 02:32:24,399
same genome

4569
02:32:27,590 --> 02:32:25,920
and but there might be tumors for

4570
02:32:28,550 --> 02:32:27,600
instance and the organism tries to get

4571
02:32:31,349 --> 02:32:28,560
rid of them

4572
02:32:33,510 --> 02:32:31,359
and so the organism is in some sense a

4573
02:32:35,830 --> 02:32:33,520
function that describes an order

4574
02:32:37,349 --> 02:32:35,840
and the same way a society or a

4575
02:32:38,790 --> 02:32:37,359
civilization is a function that

4576
02:32:40,630 --> 02:32:38,800
describes this order

4577
02:32:42,870 --> 02:32:40,640
and the organism if you look closely

4578
02:32:44,790 --> 02:32:42,880
only exists approximately

4579
02:32:46,389 --> 02:32:44,800
right because you cannot describe

4580
02:32:48,630 --> 02:32:46,399
everything that happens there

4581
02:32:49,910 --> 02:32:48,640
using that thing if you look at reality

4582
02:32:51,830 --> 02:32:49,920
you only can do this

4583
02:32:53,510 --> 02:32:51,840
in a hypothetical space where you reason

4584
02:32:55,830 --> 02:32:53,520
about what also cells are doing

4585
02:32:57,110 --> 02:32:55,840
and the same thing is true for society

4586
02:32:59,670 --> 02:32:57,120
or for cells

4587
02:33:02,070 --> 02:32:59,680
and this notion of the emergence of a

4588
02:33:03,750 --> 02:33:02,080
society that is entirely coherent

4589
02:33:05,590 --> 02:33:03,760
where the behavior of all the

4590
02:33:07,590 --> 02:33:05,600
individuals has sense

4591
02:33:09,270 --> 02:33:07,600
with respect to the greater whole this

4592
02:33:11,030 --> 02:33:09,280
coincides with the invention of the

4593
02:33:12,469 --> 02:33:11,040
concept of gods and i think they are

4594
02:33:14,389 --> 02:33:12,479
basically the same concept

4595
02:33:16,550 --> 02:33:14,399
it's the idea that individuals can

4596
02:33:18,550 --> 02:33:16,560
interact in such a way that their form

4597
02:33:20,389 --> 02:33:18,560
and agent on the next level of

4598
02:33:21,750 --> 02:33:20,399
description and this agent is sentient

4599
02:33:22,469 --> 02:33:21,760
it has a relationship to the world

4600
02:33:25,510 --> 02:33:22,479
around it

4601
02:33:27,110 --> 02:33:25,520
as goals and a relationship to its

4602
02:33:28,790 --> 02:33:27,120
constituents to the parts

4603
02:33:30,710 --> 02:33:28,800
and you can see in the history of the

4604
02:33:32,389 --> 02:33:30,720
religions that this relationship to the

4605
02:33:35,190 --> 02:33:32,399
constituent parts changes

4606
02:33:36,950 --> 02:33:35,200
right the old abrahamic god is is really

4607
02:33:38,870 --> 02:33:36,960
a mean he doesn't care about the

4608
02:33:41,510 --> 02:33:38,880
individuals what he does to job

4609
02:33:42,469 --> 02:33:41,520
uh just to uh prove a coin point to the

4610
02:33:45,349 --> 02:33:42,479
devil is

4611
02:33:45,670 --> 02:33:45,359
uh horrible right from the perspective

4612
02:33:47,910 --> 02:33:45,680
of

4613
02:33:49,750 --> 02:33:47,920
an individual but from the perspective

4614
02:33:51,270 --> 02:33:49,760
of an organism doing something to its

4615
02:33:53,429 --> 02:33:51,280
cells it doesn't matter at all

4616
02:33:55,190 --> 02:33:53,439
right of course the organism is able to

4617
02:33:56,790 --> 02:33:55,200
do things to its cells and the cells are

4618
02:33:58,309 --> 02:33:56,800
not supposed to care about this

4619
02:33:59,910 --> 02:33:58,319
because they belong to the organism they

4620
02:34:00,469 --> 02:33:59,920
are owned by the organism they only

4621
02:34:02,389 --> 02:34:00,479
exist

4622
02:34:04,070 --> 02:34:02,399
by the grace of the organism and for the

4623
02:34:05,910 --> 02:34:04,080
good of the organism it reminds me of

4624
02:34:09,270 --> 02:34:05,920
what you describe fascism is like

4625
02:34:11,429 --> 02:34:09,280
yes exactly and the idea of for instance

4626
02:34:13,190 --> 02:34:11,439
the introduction of jesus christ and

4627
02:34:16,710 --> 02:34:13,200
catholicism

4628
02:34:18,070 --> 02:34:16,720
was necessary to deal with a religion

4629
02:34:18,790 --> 02:34:18,080
that was compatible with the roman

4630
02:34:20,630 --> 02:34:18,800
empire

4631
02:34:22,389 --> 02:34:20,640
so you want to have a society where you

4632
02:34:24,150 --> 02:34:22,399
already have pax romana and every

4633
02:34:25,190 --> 02:34:24,160
individual has something like its own

4634
02:34:27,349 --> 02:34:25,200
dignity

4635
02:34:28,389 --> 02:34:27,359
and its own role regardless of the

4636
02:34:29,910 --> 02:34:28,399
society

4637
02:34:31,429 --> 02:34:29,920
and you need to make a good offer to

4638
02:34:33,110 --> 02:34:31,439
these individuals and you need to

4639
02:34:35,270 --> 02:34:33,120
structure the relationship between the

4640
02:34:36,630 --> 02:34:35,280
individuals and allow them to grow into

4641
02:34:39,190 --> 02:34:36,640
the part of the organism

4642
02:34:40,230 --> 02:34:39,200
so you introduce humanism and the entire

4643
02:34:42,150 --> 02:34:40,240
idea of

4644
02:34:43,270 --> 02:34:42,160
jesus christ i think is the introduction

4645
02:34:45,670 --> 02:34:43,280
of humanism

4646
02:34:47,429 --> 02:34:45,680
into this hebrew religion and of course

4647
02:34:49,270 --> 02:34:47,439
the hebrew religion has changed later on

4648
02:34:51,670 --> 02:34:49,280
and became more humanist

4649
02:34:53,429 --> 02:34:51,680
in other ways but i think that

4650
02:34:55,990 --> 02:34:53,439
originally the invention or

4651
02:34:57,990 --> 02:34:56,000
the introduction of the concept of jesus

4652
02:35:01,590 --> 02:34:58,000
was exactly this humanization

4653
02:35:04,150 --> 02:35:01,600
of this uh resulting hyperorganism

4654
02:35:06,150 --> 02:35:04,160
and we have been selected to be part of

4655
02:35:08,070 --> 02:35:06,160
an hyperorganism people that didn't play

4656
02:35:09,830 --> 02:35:08,080
their role in the hyperorganism and were

4657
02:35:11,270 --> 02:35:09,840
unwilling to subscribe to it

4658
02:35:13,110 --> 02:35:11,280
they were often killed right they didn't

4659
02:35:15,270 --> 02:35:13,120
have a lot of offspring

4660
02:35:16,950 --> 02:35:15,280
and we did this for a period of many

4661
02:35:18,710 --> 02:35:16,960
many generations literally over more

4662
02:35:21,670 --> 02:35:18,720
than a thousand years

4663
02:35:22,150 --> 02:35:21,680
and so most of the people that live

4664
02:35:24,389 --> 02:35:22,160
today

4665
02:35:25,429 --> 02:35:24,399
on this planet are the result of having

4666
02:35:28,150 --> 02:35:25,439
grown up in such

4667
02:35:29,590 --> 02:35:28,160
systems of organization and so they are

4668
02:35:30,950 --> 02:35:29,600
selected for these systems of

4669
02:35:32,790 --> 02:35:30,960
organizations we are all

4670
02:35:34,389 --> 02:35:32,800
selected for feeding part of something

4671
02:35:35,110 --> 02:35:34,399
that is much larger than a tribe or a

4672
02:35:37,590 --> 02:35:35,120
family

4673
02:35:38,389 --> 02:35:37,600
we are part of a transcendental greater

4674
02:35:40,950 --> 02:35:38,399
whole of

4675
02:35:42,070 --> 02:35:40,960
of some civilization and the old word

4676
02:35:43,510 --> 02:35:42,080
before enlightenment for this

4677
02:35:45,030 --> 02:35:43,520
civilization was god

4678
02:35:47,270 --> 02:35:45,040
we are reluctant to use this word

4679
02:35:50,550 --> 02:35:47,280
because it's so tainted by the

4680
02:35:52,230 --> 02:35:50,560
mythology of the cults that we

4681
02:35:53,990 --> 02:35:52,240
invented or that were invented to

4682
02:35:55,910 --> 02:35:54,000
stabilize the civilizations

4683
02:35:58,309 --> 02:35:55,920
right the religions invented mythologies

4684
02:35:59,990 --> 02:35:58,319
that are not possibly true that don't

4685
02:36:01,750 --> 02:36:00,000
have evidence going for them

4686
02:36:03,830 --> 02:36:01,760
and cannot have possible evidence like

4687
02:36:04,469 --> 02:36:03,840
creator gods cannot have evidence for

4688
02:36:06,309 --> 02:36:04,479
them

4689
02:36:07,750 --> 02:36:06,319
you cannot observe as an inhabitant of

4690
02:36:09,429 --> 02:36:07,760
the universe act

4691
02:36:11,429 --> 02:36:09,439
that relates to its creation and any

4692
02:36:11,910 --> 02:36:11,439
statement thereof will only be a mental

4693
02:36:14,230 --> 02:36:11,920
state

4694
02:36:15,910 --> 02:36:14,240
that the individual has not something

4695
02:36:17,990 --> 02:36:15,920
that is a valid experiment

4696
02:36:19,830 --> 02:36:18,000
that tells you something about reality

4697
02:36:22,469 --> 02:36:19,840
so gods are

4698
02:36:23,910 --> 02:36:22,479
mental constructs they are about as real

4699
02:36:25,030 --> 02:36:23,920
as selves which are also mental

4700
02:36:27,429 --> 02:36:25,040
constructs

4701
02:36:28,150 --> 02:36:27,439
a god is the same gods are as real as

4702
02:36:31,910 --> 02:36:28,160
you

4703
02:36:34,230 --> 02:36:31,920
construct yes gods can

4704
02:36:35,349 --> 02:36:34,240
are basically selves that span multiple

4705
02:36:37,910 --> 02:36:35,359
minds

4706
02:36:39,750 --> 02:36:37,920
and the greek gods are good good

4707
02:36:40,630 --> 02:36:39,760
examples for that so the greek gods are

4708
02:36:42,790 --> 02:36:40,640
stable

4709
02:36:44,070 --> 02:36:42,800
because they are all archetypes they are

4710
02:36:46,469 --> 02:36:44,080
all certain

4711
02:36:48,230 --> 02:36:46,479
extremes of psychology or connections of

4712
02:36:50,870 --> 02:36:48,240
extremes of psychology that give

4713
02:36:52,309 --> 02:36:50,880
rise to some kind of a human archetype

4714
02:36:54,230 --> 02:36:52,319
and this makes them immortal you can

4715
02:36:56,710 --> 02:36:54,240
refer to them

4716
02:36:58,790 --> 02:36:56,720
across human beings and you can treat

4717
02:37:01,670 --> 02:36:58,800
them as if they would exist

4718
02:37:03,190 --> 02:37:01,680
and then they are the demigods like

4719
02:37:05,990 --> 02:37:03,200
hercules

4720
02:37:07,429 --> 02:37:06,000
who exists because he has stories that

4721
02:37:09,590 --> 02:37:07,439
make him immortal

4722
02:37:13,110 --> 02:37:09,600
but this thing that you can live in the

4723
02:37:15,830 --> 02:37:13,120
mind of another person or of an organism

4724
02:37:16,630 --> 02:37:15,840
and move from one mind to another one

4725
02:37:18,389 --> 02:37:16,640
this is what

4726
02:37:20,230 --> 02:37:18,399
makes you a god in this conception of

4727
02:37:22,309 --> 02:37:20,240
the greeks it's not the normative force

4728
02:37:24,950 --> 02:37:22,319
that our religions had

4729
02:37:26,710 --> 02:37:24,960
and in our religions the identification

4730
02:37:27,830 --> 02:37:26,720
of a god is not just it's an immortal

4731
02:37:30,469 --> 02:37:27,840
superhero comic

4732
02:37:31,590 --> 02:37:30,479
character but it's some kind of

4733
02:37:34,630 --> 02:37:31,600
archetype instead

4734
02:37:36,230 --> 02:37:34,640
it's uh it's a singular thing it's

4735
02:37:39,270 --> 02:37:36,240
monotheist god

4736
02:37:40,469 --> 02:37:39,280
uh or it's a subset of it that is like a

4737
02:37:43,590 --> 02:37:40,479
limp of that god

4738
02:37:46,230 --> 02:37:43,600
that is describing what our civilization

4739
02:37:47,990 --> 02:37:46,240
ought to be seen as and the relationship

4740
02:37:50,230 --> 02:37:48,000
that we have to that god is

4741
02:37:51,910 --> 02:37:50,240
established for instance in prayer

4742
02:37:53,830 --> 02:37:51,920
prayer is an activity in which we

4743
02:37:55,750 --> 02:37:53,840
meditate about the properties of god and

4744
02:37:57,990 --> 02:37:55,760
the relationships that we have to god

4745
02:37:59,590 --> 02:37:58,000
and thereby establish god and in the

4746
02:38:01,429 --> 02:37:59,600
process of prayers

4747
02:38:03,190 --> 02:38:01,439
gods can even become conscious if that's

4748
02:38:05,270 --> 02:38:03,200
part of their specification even though

4749
02:38:07,349 --> 02:38:05,280
they use the hardware of the human brain

4750
02:38:08,710 --> 02:38:07,359
of the individual human brain so in some

4751
02:38:11,429 --> 02:38:08,720
sense prayer works

4752
02:38:12,630 --> 02:38:11,439
even though the god doesn't exist in the

4753
02:38:15,030 --> 02:38:12,640
physicalist sense

4754
02:38:16,630 --> 02:38:15,040
it exists in some abstract sense yes of

4755
02:38:18,309 --> 02:38:16,640
course the prayer changes the

4756
02:38:19,830 --> 02:38:18,319
relationships that people have to each

4757
02:38:21,349 --> 02:38:19,840
other and the identifications that

4758
02:38:22,870 --> 02:38:21,359
people have they change what people

4759
02:38:24,309 --> 02:38:22,880
think is right and normal and good and

4760
02:38:25,750 --> 02:38:24,319
what they want to do

4761
02:38:27,670 --> 02:38:25,760
and they change the way they interact

4762
02:38:28,469 --> 02:38:27,680
how they share resources do you pray

4763
02:38:31,990 --> 02:38:28,479
first

4764
02:38:33,830 --> 02:38:32,000
no you meditate yes and

4765
02:38:35,670 --> 02:38:33,840
i could say that there is maybe

4766
02:38:36,870 --> 02:38:35,680
everybody prays in a certain way in the

4767
02:38:38,870 --> 02:38:36,880
sense that we try to

4768
02:38:40,309 --> 02:38:38,880
spend time in establishing our

4769
02:38:41,429 --> 02:38:40,319
relationship to the greater whole and

4770
02:38:43,270 --> 02:38:41,439
reflect on that

4771
02:38:45,030 --> 02:38:43,280
so i would say that in a very secular

4772
02:38:49,510 --> 02:38:45,040
way i'm praying

4773
02:38:51,830 --> 02:38:49,520
but i grew up in in a world where

4774
02:38:53,750 --> 02:38:51,840
the religious cults were seen as

4775
02:38:55,190 --> 02:38:53,760
repulsive because they are antagonistic

4776
02:38:57,429 --> 02:38:55,200
to rationality

4777
02:38:59,190 --> 02:38:57,439
and i take issue with the

4778
02:39:02,469 --> 02:38:59,200
anti-rationalism of the way the

4779
02:39:05,190 --> 02:39:02,479
mythology of religions is enforced

4780
02:39:07,429 --> 02:39:05,200
so somebody who forces me to believe

4781
02:39:09,349 --> 02:39:07,439
things that are manifestly untrue

4782
02:39:11,670 --> 02:39:09,359
just to have a checksum on my mind that

4783
02:39:13,910 --> 02:39:11,680
distinguishes me from non-believers

4784
02:39:15,830 --> 02:39:13,920
is violating me that's why i cannot be

4785
02:39:17,830 --> 02:39:15,840
part of such a cult

4786
02:39:19,590 --> 02:39:17,840
at least not in my present state i can

4787
02:39:21,349 --> 02:39:19,600
only be part of something that is

4788
02:39:24,309 --> 02:39:21,359
compatible with being rational

4789
02:39:25,110 --> 02:39:24,319
and this means retaining autonomy over

4790
02:39:32,790 --> 02:39:25,120
my

4791
02:39:34,070 --> 02:39:32,800
morality identity i cannot be part of

4792
02:39:37,510 --> 02:39:34,080
something

4793
02:39:37,990 --> 02:39:37,520
and i there are groups that act like

4794
02:39:39,030 --> 02:39:38,000
this

4795
02:39:40,630 --> 02:39:39,040
and you could say that they are

4796
02:39:41,830 --> 02:39:40,640
spiritual that but they're probably not

4797
02:39:43,190 --> 02:39:41,840
religious at least not in the

4798
02:39:44,710 --> 02:39:43,200
traditional sense because they don't

4799
02:39:45,990 --> 02:39:44,720
have organized religion for the most

4800
02:39:48,870 --> 02:39:46,000
part

4801
02:39:50,790 --> 02:39:48,880
but so uh to get back to this a person

4802
02:39:51,670 --> 02:39:50,800
who wants to end all life it tends to be

4803
02:39:53,830 --> 02:39:51,680
a person

4804
02:39:55,110 --> 02:39:53,840
who is not disinterested in life it

4805
02:39:57,110 --> 02:39:55,120
tends to be a person

4806
02:39:58,309 --> 02:39:57,120
who does take an interest in the greater

4807
02:40:00,309 --> 02:39:58,319
whole

4808
02:40:02,309 --> 02:40:00,319
because uh the actions of that

4809
02:40:02,710 --> 02:40:02,319
individual affect other individuals

4810
02:40:04,550 --> 02:40:02,720
right

4811
02:40:07,349 --> 02:40:04,560
they want to end life and experience for

4812
02:40:08,790 --> 02:40:07,359
all of them right and so this means that

4813
02:40:11,110 --> 02:40:08,800
there is a relationship that this

4814
02:40:13,910 --> 02:40:11,120
individual has to the greater whole

4815
02:40:15,269 --> 02:40:13,920
and it's one of uh disenchantment it's

4816
02:40:17,990 --> 02:40:15,279
one of opposition

4817
02:40:18,469 --> 02:40:18,000
it's one where that individual decides

4818
02:40:25,510 --> 02:40:18,479
that

4819
02:40:27,030 --> 02:40:25,520
morally unjustified and this can happen

4820
02:40:27,830 --> 02:40:27,040
right if you're for instance if you're a

4821
02:40:29,590 --> 02:40:27,840
kid that is

4822
02:40:31,349 --> 02:40:29,600
mistreated and bullied by everyone and

4823
02:40:31,830 --> 02:40:31,359
you don't have a space in the world at

4824
02:40:33,670 --> 02:40:31,840
all

4825
02:40:35,269 --> 02:40:33,680
and you decide it's not your fault and

4826
02:40:38,389 --> 02:40:35,279
so you should die

4827
02:40:40,230 --> 02:40:38,399
but it's everybody else's fault and the

4828
02:40:42,070 --> 02:40:40,240
way that everybody else plays and

4829
02:40:43,670 --> 02:40:42,080
maybe it's the way that everybody else

4830
02:40:45,429 --> 02:40:43,680
is organized by the forces of the

4831
02:40:46,870 --> 02:40:45,439
universe and evolution and you can just

4832
02:40:48,469 --> 02:40:46,880
not make peace with that

4833
02:40:50,550 --> 02:40:48,479
maybe you radically oppose it and you

4834
02:40:53,110 --> 02:40:50,560
want to end it

4835
02:40:54,950 --> 02:40:53,120
and that experientially might uh

4836
02:40:57,190 --> 02:40:54,960
manifest itself as

4837
02:40:59,110 --> 02:40:57,200
running amok so it's a result of not

4838
02:41:00,630 --> 02:40:59,120
just a loss of meaning but an inversion

4839
02:41:04,070 --> 02:41:00,640
of meaning it's

4840
02:41:05,590 --> 02:41:04,080
it's an inversion of this spiritual need

4841
02:41:07,670 --> 02:41:05,600
that people have but it's still a

4842
02:41:09,990 --> 02:41:07,680
spiritual need can you expound on that

4843
02:41:12,790 --> 02:41:10,000
it's an inversion of the spiritual need

4844
02:41:13,269 --> 02:41:12,800
i think that uh in our society that has

4845
02:41:16,070 --> 02:41:13,279
lost

4846
02:41:17,670 --> 02:41:16,080
its future and uh you cannot have a

4847
02:41:18,710 --> 02:41:17,680
civilization without planning for a

4848
02:41:20,550 --> 02:41:18,720
future because this is what a

4849
02:41:22,230 --> 02:41:20,560
civilization is for and about

4850
02:41:23,990 --> 02:41:22,240
right in the niche in sense of the death

4851
02:41:26,790 --> 02:41:24,000
of a higher value

4852
02:41:28,950 --> 02:41:26,800
uh no it's basically a civilization is

4853
02:41:31,670 --> 02:41:28,960
the thing which makes you

4854
02:41:32,950 --> 02:41:31,680
build a cathedral over 500 years it's

4855
02:41:34,309 --> 02:41:32,960
something that allows you to act on

4856
02:41:36,070 --> 02:41:34,319
long-term plans it's something that

4857
02:41:36,550 --> 02:41:36,080
allows you to organize things in such a

4858
02:41:38,469 --> 02:41:36,560
way

4859
02:41:39,830 --> 02:41:38,479
that your grand grandchildren will have

4860
02:41:42,790 --> 02:41:39,840
a way of living

4861
02:41:44,550 --> 02:41:42,800
and we have given up on that our future

4862
02:41:46,070 --> 02:41:44,560
is changing much more rapidly than our

4863
02:41:47,510 --> 02:41:46,080
models of the future and so we have

4864
02:41:49,990 --> 02:41:47,520
stopped tracking the future

4865
02:41:51,750 --> 02:41:50,000
but what we can track now is that there

4866
02:41:53,429 --> 02:41:51,760
is not much future left possibly at

4867
02:41:53,910 --> 02:41:53,439
least we don't see how it can play out

4868
02:41:55,590 --> 02:41:53,920
well

4869
02:41:57,429 --> 02:41:55,600
we don't have strategies to deal with

4870
02:41:58,469 --> 02:41:57,439
the existential problems that our future

4871
02:42:01,030 --> 02:41:58,479
is bringing

4872
02:42:01,670 --> 02:42:01,040
we realize that the summer is awkward

4873
02:42:03,190 --> 02:42:01,680
that's

4874
02:42:05,750 --> 02:42:03,200
one of the worst summers that we ever

4875
02:42:07,510 --> 02:42:05,760
had but we also

4876
02:42:09,590 --> 02:42:07,520
realized that this is going to be one of

4877
02:42:10,630 --> 02:42:09,600
the coolest summers of the next hundred

4878
02:42:12,630 --> 02:42:10,640
years

4879
02:42:14,070 --> 02:42:12,640
we are unable to imagine what the summer

4880
02:42:16,630 --> 02:42:14,080
of 2025

4881
02:42:18,309 --> 02:42:16,640
will be like and when we think about it

4882
02:42:19,750 --> 02:42:18,319
we are terrified because we don't

4883
02:42:21,349 --> 02:42:19,760
prepare for it we don't have ways for

4884
02:42:23,269 --> 02:42:21,359
dealing with something that is worse

4885
02:42:24,630 --> 02:42:23,279
than the status quo what is that this is

4886
02:42:26,710 --> 02:42:24,640
spirituality

4887
02:42:28,150 --> 02:42:26,720
so basically we live in a world that has

4888
02:42:31,190 --> 02:42:28,160
lost its future

4889
02:42:34,070 --> 02:42:31,200
and as a result we have lost our culture

4890
02:42:34,469 --> 02:42:34,080
and so our spirituality our innate need

4891
02:42:36,469 --> 02:42:34,479
for

4892
02:42:38,950 --> 02:42:36,479
being part of a culture that is giving

4893
02:42:41,269 --> 02:42:38,960
rise to a sentient civilization

4894
02:42:42,630 --> 02:42:41,279
this has become a phantom limp and

4895
02:42:44,230 --> 02:42:42,640
that's why people are drawn to

4896
02:42:46,870 --> 02:42:44,240
superstition to

4897
02:42:48,950 --> 02:42:46,880
uh to feel that phantom lamp so this

4898
02:42:52,870 --> 02:42:48,960
phantom lamp attaches itself to

4899
02:42:55,510 --> 02:42:52,880
ideas of a conscious universe or of

4900
02:42:56,230 --> 02:42:55,520
immaterial deities that uh care about

4901
02:42:59,349 --> 02:42:56,240
you in some

4902
02:43:02,550 --> 02:42:59,359
magical way and uh

4903
02:43:03,030 --> 02:43:02,560
this is all of course this is

4904
02:43:04,469 --> 02:43:03,040
uh

4905
02:43:06,389 --> 02:43:04,479
this is really the expression of that

4906
02:43:08,389 --> 02:43:06,399
phantom lump the thing that is

4907
02:43:09,670 --> 02:43:08,399
is real is this is life on the planet

4908
02:43:11,349 --> 02:43:09,680
it's the ecosystem

4909
02:43:12,790 --> 02:43:11,359
and it's our part in the ecosystem and

4910
02:43:14,710 --> 02:43:12,800
it's our civilization

4911
02:43:15,910 --> 02:43:14,720
that organizes us as part of that

4912
02:43:17,910 --> 02:43:15,920
ecosystem

4913
02:43:19,670 --> 02:43:17,920
and if we cannot maintain that then

4914
02:43:24,469 --> 02:43:19,680
everything becomes meaningless and we

4915
02:43:28,309 --> 02:43:26,630
what do you disagree about with peterson

4916
02:43:30,630 --> 02:43:28,319
you mentioned peterson's

4917
02:43:32,070 --> 02:43:30,640
conception of the high school shooters

4918
02:43:34,230 --> 02:43:32,080
as saying they

4919
02:43:36,150 --> 02:43:34,240
are objecting to god and you said well

4920
02:43:37,990 --> 02:43:36,160
that's correct in some sense there are

4921
02:43:39,830 --> 02:43:38,000
many many aspects where i don't uh

4922
02:43:41,429 --> 02:43:39,840
really agree with peterson it's i just

4923
02:43:42,950 --> 02:43:41,439
referred to him because he

4924
02:43:44,550 --> 02:43:42,960
uh is one of the few public

4925
02:43:45,510 --> 02:43:44,560
intellectuals we have left for better or

4926
02:43:46,950 --> 02:43:45,520
verse right

4927
02:43:48,550 --> 02:43:46,960
i'm curious what ways do you defer we

4928
02:43:49,830 --> 02:43:48,560
talked about dennett and you you said

4929
02:43:50,870 --> 02:43:49,840
you disagree with him in some sense

4930
02:43:53,349 --> 02:43:50,880
because he's incomplete

4931
02:43:54,870 --> 02:43:53,359
what about peterson that's more

4932
02:43:56,710 --> 02:43:54,880
commission right that's more old mission

4933
02:43:58,710 --> 02:43:56,720
rather than commission

4934
02:44:00,389 --> 02:43:58,720
uh i refer to peterson because he is a

4935
02:44:01,590 --> 02:44:00,399
common point of reference we all know

4936
02:44:02,790 --> 02:44:01,600
about him right now no that's fine

4937
02:44:03,590 --> 02:44:02,800
that's fine but i'm curious where you

4938
02:44:07,030 --> 02:44:03,600
disagree

4939
02:44:10,150 --> 02:44:07,040
so um and where you

4940
02:44:10,710 --> 02:44:10,160
agree yes so uh yeah the interesting

4941
02:44:12,070 --> 02:44:10,720
thing is

4942
02:44:13,830 --> 02:44:12,080
for me when i have to talk about

4943
02:44:14,710 --> 02:44:13,840
disagreement because disagreement is the

4944
02:44:16,630 --> 02:44:14,720
default state

4945
02:44:17,990 --> 02:44:16,640
between mines isn't it it's only where

4946
02:44:20,550 --> 02:44:18,000
we can establish agreement

4947
02:44:21,110 --> 02:44:20,560
when we are independent thinkers where

4948
02:44:24,309 --> 02:44:21,120
we

4949
02:44:27,110 --> 02:44:24,319
same way

4950
02:44:27,990 --> 02:44:27,120
so uh peterson thinks that the best way

4951
02:44:31,910 --> 02:44:28,000
to

4952
02:44:32,870 --> 02:44:31,920
state religion with some kind of

4953
02:44:35,429 --> 02:44:32,880
aggregate war

4954
02:44:35,990 --> 02:44:35,439
is to make a stand and to expose

4955
02:44:39,670 --> 02:44:36,000
yourself

4956
02:44:40,389 --> 02:44:39,680
and uh i am not sure if i agree with

4957
02:44:42,469 --> 02:44:40,399
that

4958
02:44:46,150 --> 02:44:42,479
so basically he is fighting a cultural

4959
02:44:47,990 --> 02:44:46,160
war in an ineffectual way i think there

4960
02:44:50,469 --> 02:44:48,000
is also a deeper level

4961
02:44:52,790 --> 02:44:50,479
peterson thinks that growing up consists

4962
02:44:56,790 --> 02:44:52,800
in making a sacrifice

4963
02:44:58,710 --> 02:44:56,800
and the sacrifice is self-actualization

4964
02:45:00,230 --> 02:44:58,720
he would like to be happy but he cannot

4965
02:45:01,990 --> 02:45:00,240
afford to be happy but it was it's

4966
02:45:04,710 --> 02:45:02,000
incompatible with being an adult and

4967
02:45:08,070 --> 02:45:04,720
doing the things that an adult has to do

4968
02:45:09,630 --> 02:45:08,080
and his sacrifice is incomplete he has

4969
02:45:11,190 --> 02:45:09,640
not sacrificed his need for

4970
02:45:12,630 --> 02:45:11,200
self-actualization

4971
02:45:14,230 --> 02:45:12,640
and that's why he appears to be so

4972
02:45:15,990 --> 02:45:14,240
bitter right

4973
02:45:17,349 --> 02:45:16,000
if he had made the sacrifice he wouldn't

4974
02:45:19,070 --> 02:45:17,359
be bitter

4975
02:45:21,110 --> 02:45:19,080
would sacrifice sacrifice of

4976
02:45:24,469 --> 02:45:21,120
self-actualization yes

4977
02:45:26,309 --> 02:45:24,479
so he would become a priest

4978
02:45:28,870 --> 02:45:26,319
he would have that serene state of

4979
02:45:30,309 --> 02:45:28,880
somebody who has not lost anything

4980
02:45:33,429 --> 02:45:30,319
because he doesn't need anything

4981
02:45:34,150 --> 02:45:33,439
what he doesn't have right this if you

4982
02:45:37,030 --> 02:45:34,160
look at the

4983
02:45:37,590 --> 02:45:37,040
archetypal priest it's a person that is

4984
02:45:39,269 --> 02:45:37,600
serene

4985
02:45:41,190 --> 02:45:39,279
that is smiling because they are at

4986
02:45:43,110 --> 02:45:41,200
peace with themselves and the world

4987
02:45:44,790 --> 02:45:43,120
and they might be suffering momentarily

4988
02:45:47,670 --> 02:45:44,800
because the unbelievers

4989
02:45:48,870 --> 02:45:47,680
crucify him but apart from the moments

4990
02:45:52,630 --> 02:45:48,880
of

4991
02:45:54,469 --> 02:45:52,640
acute pain or the

4992
02:45:56,710 --> 02:45:54,479
moments of compassion for their flock

4993
02:45:58,150 --> 02:45:56,720
when they are involved in their

4994
02:46:00,150 --> 02:45:58,160
dealings with the world and try to help

4995
02:46:01,510 --> 02:46:00,160
them and fail at doing so because not

4996
02:46:04,309 --> 02:46:01,520
all things can be helped

4997
02:46:05,590 --> 02:46:04,319
right the priest is supposed to be okay

4998
02:46:07,429 --> 02:46:05,600
with what he does

4999
02:46:08,790 --> 02:46:07,439
and peterson is not okay with what he

5000
02:46:12,309 --> 02:46:08,800
does he is

5001
02:46:14,469 --> 02:46:12,319
suffering because he uh has retained his

5002
02:46:16,469 --> 02:46:14,479
identity

5003
02:46:18,309 --> 02:46:16,479
that the one that he thinks he has uh

5004
02:46:19,670 --> 02:46:18,319
sacrificed he hasn't

5005
02:46:20,950 --> 02:46:19,680
yes basically trying to understand it

5006
02:46:21,510 --> 02:46:20,960
i'm trying to understand this so you're

5007
02:46:23,349 --> 02:46:21,520
saying that

5008
02:46:24,630 --> 02:46:23,359
he has an identity and because he's

5009
02:46:25,670 --> 02:46:24,640
holding on to it it's like a want and

5010
02:46:26,389 --> 02:46:25,680
you should get rid of your wants and

5011
02:46:29,670 --> 02:46:26,399
then you'll be

5012
02:46:31,590 --> 02:46:29,680
placid and serene and tranquil yes

5013
02:46:33,269 --> 02:46:31,600
so he basically he's doing something

5014
02:46:34,790 --> 02:46:33,279
that he has not fully internalized

5015
02:46:37,990 --> 02:46:34,800
himself

5016
02:46:40,309 --> 02:46:38,000
he is expressing the tension between

5017
02:46:41,349 --> 02:46:40,319
what he thinks he needs to be doing and

5018
02:46:43,750 --> 02:46:41,359
what he does

5019
02:46:44,630 --> 02:46:43,760
and what he feels would reward him for

5020
02:46:50,870 --> 02:46:44,640
doing

5021
02:46:55,269 --> 02:46:53,110
and uh there is of course this uh other

5022
02:46:57,269 --> 02:46:55,279
thing that uh

5023
02:46:58,389 --> 02:46:57,279
he is acting on certain incentives in

5024
02:47:00,630 --> 02:46:58,399
this game

5025
02:47:02,550 --> 02:47:00,640
and the question is uh are these

5026
02:47:05,429 --> 02:47:02,560
incentives completely pure

5027
02:47:07,349 --> 02:47:05,439
so he is a publicist that is filling a

5028
02:47:11,830 --> 02:47:07,359
certain niche a certain vacuum

5029
02:47:13,670 --> 02:47:11,840
he is uh trying to give people values

5030
02:47:16,150 --> 02:47:13,680
uh he is trying to a protective

5031
02:47:18,070 --> 02:47:16,160
authority in a time that needs authority

5032
02:47:20,309 --> 02:47:18,080
and he might not be projecting exactly

5033
02:47:21,910 --> 02:47:20,319
the right authority of fitting authority

5034
02:47:23,910 --> 02:47:21,920
but he's interacting with the fact that

5035
02:47:24,469 --> 02:47:23,920
the millennials are the first generation

5036
02:47:28,790 --> 02:47:24,479
since

5037
02:47:30,469 --> 02:47:28,800
uh the post-war generation that are

5038
02:47:31,349 --> 02:47:30,479
authoritarian again right every

5039
02:47:34,389 --> 02:47:31,359
generation

5040
02:47:36,550 --> 02:47:34,399
after world war ii was liberal why are

5041
02:47:38,230 --> 02:47:36,560
we authoritarian

5042
02:47:39,830 --> 02:47:38,240
um i think that the millennials became

5043
02:47:41,670 --> 02:47:39,840
authoritarian because they realized that

5044
02:47:43,910 --> 02:47:41,680
liberalism has failed them

5045
02:47:45,750 --> 02:47:43,920
it has failed at uh saving the

5046
02:47:46,950 --> 02:47:45,760
environment at uh

5047
02:47:49,110 --> 02:47:46,960
offering resources and

5048
02:47:51,269 --> 02:47:49,120
self-actualization to everybody

5049
02:47:53,030 --> 02:47:51,279
so now we need to go to some

5050
02:47:54,630 --> 02:47:53,040
authoritarian system where we control

5051
02:47:55,349 --> 02:47:54,640
what people think and feel and how they

5052
02:47:58,469 --> 02:47:55,359
interact

5053
02:48:00,230 --> 02:47:58,479
and the result

5054
02:48:02,469 --> 02:48:00,240
of the world the insufficiency of the

5055
02:48:04,710 --> 02:48:02,479
world is no longer seen as the

5056
02:48:06,230 --> 02:48:04,720
uh absence uh the result of the absence

5057
02:48:07,910 --> 02:48:06,240
of freedom right the

5058
02:48:09,510 --> 02:48:07,920
post-war generation saw that the

5059
02:48:11,510 --> 02:48:09,520
problems of the world were that we

5060
02:48:13,750 --> 02:48:11,520
didn't have enough freedom

5061
02:48:15,190 --> 02:48:13,760
we needed to uh free individuals for

5062
02:48:17,349 --> 02:48:15,200
instance we we should have

5063
02:48:18,550 --> 02:48:17,359
the ability to engage freely in love and

5064
02:48:21,269 --> 02:48:18,560
sexuality

5065
02:48:22,790 --> 02:48:21,279
to self-actualize and the problems that

5066
02:48:23,670 --> 02:48:22,800
we had in relationship was because we

5067
02:48:26,389 --> 02:48:23,680
didn't have enough

5068
02:48:26,790 --> 02:48:26,399
freedom in our relationships and now and

5069
02:48:30,150 --> 02:48:26,800
now

5070
02:48:30,469 --> 02:48:30,160
uh the results of injustice in the world

5071
02:48:32,550 --> 02:48:30,479
are

5072
02:48:34,150 --> 02:48:32,560
seen by many millennials as the result

5073
02:48:36,630 --> 02:48:34,160
of a surplus of freedom

5074
02:48:38,150 --> 02:48:36,640
well oppression is the flip side or

5075
02:48:41,429 --> 02:48:38,160
referring to the

5076
02:48:44,150 --> 02:48:41,439
that's that's privileged or this yes yes

5077
02:48:44,790 --> 02:48:44,160
it's basically the uh the now the issue

5078
02:48:47,429 --> 02:48:44,800
that we

5079
02:48:50,150 --> 02:48:47,439
need to fight is privilege we don't need

5080
02:48:52,630 --> 02:48:50,160
and privilege is a surplus of freedom

5081
02:48:53,269 --> 02:48:52,640
and if we can remove the privilege as a

5082
02:48:54,950 --> 02:48:53,279
result

5083
02:48:57,110 --> 02:48:54,960
we get less oppression in a more just

5084
02:48:59,190 --> 02:48:57,120
world right but it also means basically

5085
02:49:00,230 --> 02:48:59,200
we have to limit the self-expression of

5086
02:49:02,469 --> 02:49:00,240
the

5087
02:49:03,349 --> 02:49:02,479
of people and this is opposed to

5088
02:49:05,910 --> 02:49:03,359
liberalism

5089
02:49:07,670 --> 02:49:05,920
what if they say that hey we just want

5090
02:49:10,230 --> 02:49:07,680
freedom for ourselves you have freedom

5091
02:49:12,389 --> 02:49:10,240
all we're doing is trying to

5092
02:49:13,510 --> 02:49:12,399
promulgate freedom just to those who are

5093
02:49:14,870 --> 02:49:13,520
on the oppressed end

5094
02:49:16,870 --> 02:49:14,880
yeah then there would be liberals there

5095
02:49:19,429 --> 02:49:16,880
would be people like for instance uh the

5096
02:49:21,349 --> 02:49:19,439
gay movement in the 1970s which said

5097
02:49:23,830 --> 02:49:21,359
uh you have freedom to marry for

5098
02:49:27,750 --> 02:49:23,840
instance and we also want to marry

5099
02:49:30,230 --> 02:49:27,760
right but social justice is for instance

5100
02:49:31,349 --> 02:49:30,240
uh if you are uh heterosexual you cannot

5101
02:49:32,309 --> 02:49:31,359
kiss in public because that's

5102
02:49:34,070 --> 02:49:32,319
heteronormative

5103
02:49:36,790 --> 02:49:34,080
i see yes and it's insulting those

5104
02:49:39,510 --> 02:49:36,800
people which cannot kiss in public

5105
02:49:39,990 --> 02:49:39,520
right and uh if you have an ability uh

5106
02:49:42,230 --> 02:49:40,000
to

5107
02:49:43,110 --> 02:49:42,240
do a certain thing you cannot uh

5108
02:49:45,269 --> 02:49:43,120
construct

5109
02:49:46,790 --> 02:49:45,279
a life around this ability because

5110
02:49:49,110 --> 02:49:46,800
that's ableist

5111
02:49:50,950 --> 02:49:49,120
right so instead we have to level the

5112
02:49:52,150 --> 02:49:50,960
playing field we have to build a society

5113
02:49:53,990 --> 02:49:52,160
that gives a

5114
02:49:56,070 --> 02:49:54,000
level playing round to those which have

5115
02:49:58,870 --> 02:49:56,080
no ability

5116
02:50:00,950 --> 02:49:58,880
and this leads uh into some apparent

5117
02:50:03,030 --> 02:50:00,960
contradictions but ideologies have no

5118
02:50:04,150 --> 02:50:03,040
difficulties with this contradiction and

5119
02:50:05,910 --> 02:50:04,160
the main issue is

5120
02:50:07,990 --> 02:50:05,920
that the rationality of this liberal

5121
02:50:09,429 --> 02:50:08,000
system is still a rationality that even

5122
02:50:11,269 --> 02:50:09,439
though it's internally logically

5123
02:50:12,469 --> 02:50:11,279
logical is a rationality that doesn't

5124
02:50:13,670 --> 02:50:12,479
serve most people

5125
02:50:15,750 --> 02:50:13,680
and it seems to be something that

5126
02:50:18,710 --> 02:50:15,760
peterson doesn't seem to understand

5127
02:50:21,190 --> 02:50:18,720
you cannot force people to abide by the

5128
02:50:23,110 --> 02:50:21,200
logic of a system by which they lose

5129
02:50:25,670 --> 02:50:23,120
but why should they play a game by which

5130
02:50:26,870 --> 02:50:25,680
they lose why should you create criteria

5131
02:50:29,349 --> 02:50:26,880
for getting a job

5132
02:50:30,790 --> 02:50:29,359
that require the equivalent of an

5133
02:50:33,110 --> 02:50:30,800
aptitude test

5134
02:50:34,790 --> 02:50:33,120
that you fail and if that job is the

5135
02:50:37,590 --> 02:50:34,800
only way that you can feed your kids

5136
02:50:39,990 --> 02:50:37,600
right uh if for instance becoming a stem

5137
02:50:41,429 --> 02:50:40,000
scientist or a machine learning engineer

5138
02:50:43,510 --> 02:50:41,439
is one of the main ways that you can

5139
02:50:46,230 --> 02:50:43,520
have social mobility and late stage

5140
02:50:48,389 --> 02:50:46,240
capitalism in the u.s

5141
02:50:49,510 --> 02:50:48,399
and you limit this to a certain subset

5142
02:50:51,269 --> 02:50:49,520
of the population

5143
02:50:53,670 --> 02:50:51,279
isn't that massively unfair to most

5144
02:50:54,630 --> 02:50:53,680
people in society and so why should most

5145
02:50:56,630 --> 02:50:54,640
people

5146
02:50:58,469 --> 02:50:56,640
subscribe to the criteria by which you

5147
02:51:00,630 --> 02:50:58,479
give out these jobs

5148
02:51:01,750 --> 02:51:00,640
and so you will find yourself with a

5149
02:51:02,630 --> 02:51:01,760
movement that's the answer what's the

5150
02:51:04,550 --> 02:51:02,640
alternative

5151
02:51:05,830 --> 02:51:04,560
i don't know what the answer is but i

5152
02:51:07,830 --> 02:51:05,840
think that

5153
02:51:09,429 --> 02:51:07,840
so i suspect that peterson is not going

5154
02:51:11,190 --> 02:51:09,439
to solve the problem

5155
02:51:12,870 --> 02:51:11,200
right he is telling these people you are

5156
02:51:14,710 --> 02:51:12,880
wrong then you try to change the

5157
02:51:15,590 --> 02:51:14,720
criteria for how we give our jobs in

5158
02:51:18,710 --> 02:51:15,600
stem

5159
02:51:21,990 --> 02:51:18,720
but he is not addressing the reason why

5160
02:51:24,389 --> 02:51:22,000
they want to change the criteria

5161
02:51:25,670 --> 02:51:24,399
and the reason is once more the reason

5162
02:51:26,870 --> 02:51:25,680
is social inequality

5163
02:51:29,590 --> 02:51:26,880
the reason is that they don't know how

5164
02:51:33,910 --> 02:51:29,600
to feed their children

5165
02:51:37,990 --> 02:51:37,110
uh i don't see a systemic order in which

5166
02:51:40,309 --> 02:51:38,000
ubi works

5167
02:51:41,590 --> 02:51:40,319
so i i think that if you want to

5168
02:51:44,710 --> 02:51:41,600
introduce ubi you

5169
02:51:46,710 --> 02:51:44,720
ought to produce a simulation

5170
02:51:48,630 --> 02:51:46,720
of the economic environment in which the

5171
02:51:50,870 --> 02:51:48,640
ubi is sustainable

5172
02:51:52,469 --> 02:51:50,880
i think that ubi is the attempt to

5173
02:51:54,870 --> 02:51:52,479
perpetuate a system

5174
02:51:56,070 --> 02:51:54,880
under changed conditions at the moment

5175
02:51:57,990 --> 02:51:56,080
uh wages

5176
02:51:59,670 --> 02:51:58,000
salary is the way that we allocate

5177
02:52:01,830 --> 02:51:59,680
resources to individuals

5178
02:52:03,030 --> 02:52:01,840
right and they are also a way in which

5179
02:52:04,309 --> 02:52:03,040
we evaluate the

5180
02:52:06,150 --> 02:52:04,319
value of the contribution of the

5181
02:52:08,469 --> 02:52:06,160
individual to society

5182
02:52:10,070 --> 02:52:08,479
and uh they are a way to discipline

5183
02:52:12,309 --> 02:52:10,080
individuals and their way to integrate

5184
02:52:14,710 --> 02:52:12,319
individuals into teams and groups into

5185
02:52:15,990 --> 02:52:14,720
society as a whole and measure the value

5186
02:52:18,230 --> 02:52:16,000
of their contribution

5187
02:52:19,830 --> 02:52:18,240
and as soon as you automate things and

5188
02:52:22,230 --> 02:52:19,840
globalize and outsource

5189
02:52:23,429 --> 02:52:22,240
uh this falls apart and this is what we

5190
02:52:25,990 --> 02:52:23,439
witnessed to some degree

5191
02:52:26,710 --> 02:52:26,000
it never worked perfectly well but now

5192
02:52:28,150 --> 02:52:26,720
it works

5193
02:52:30,389 --> 02:52:28,160
less than ever because we have more

5194
02:52:32,309 --> 02:52:30,399
productivity than ever and people don't

5195
02:52:35,590 --> 02:52:32,319
live better than ever

5196
02:52:37,990 --> 02:52:35,600
and so how do we deal with that and

5197
02:52:38,630 --> 02:52:38,000
so the idea is we give people salaries

5198
02:52:41,429 --> 02:52:38,640
but they are

5199
02:52:42,389 --> 02:52:41,439
independent of what they contribute to

5200
02:52:45,349 --> 02:52:42,399
society

5201
02:52:45,670 --> 02:52:45,359
and independent of productivity and uh

5202
02:52:47,190 --> 02:52:45,680
this

5203
02:52:49,030 --> 02:52:47,200
is probably sounds like great for

5204
02:52:51,269 --> 02:52:49,040
artists yes

5205
02:52:53,269 --> 02:52:51,279
of course because artists are largely

5206
02:52:56,070 --> 02:52:53,279
not going to change what they do

5207
02:52:56,550 --> 02:52:56,080
so uh in some sense if you give an

5208
02:52:58,469 --> 02:52:56,560
artist

5209
02:52:59,830 --> 02:52:58,479
a salary they are still going to do

5210
02:53:00,950 --> 02:52:59,840
their art because they are intrinsically

5211
02:53:02,950 --> 02:53:00,960
motivated

5212
02:53:04,150 --> 02:53:02,960
and uh it's very difficult to force an

5213
02:53:06,070 --> 02:53:04,160
artist to not do art

5214
02:53:07,750 --> 02:53:06,080
at least the artists will suffer a lot

5215
02:53:10,150 --> 02:53:07,760
and the artists will

5216
02:53:11,590 --> 02:53:10,160
typically play along with society

5217
02:53:13,349 --> 02:53:11,600
arguably a society that

5218
02:53:14,710 --> 02:53:13,359
consists entirely of artists will not

5219
02:53:17,269 --> 02:53:14,720
work very well

5220
02:53:18,710 --> 02:53:17,279
because many of the other things will be

5221
02:53:20,710 --> 02:53:18,720
left undone

5222
02:53:22,550 --> 02:53:20,720
right and a lot of society requires that

5223
02:53:24,070 --> 02:53:22,560
people do things despite not wanting to

5224
02:53:25,990 --> 02:53:24,080
do them

5225
02:53:27,349 --> 02:53:26,000
people that collect the garbage probably

5226
02:53:29,269 --> 02:53:27,359
need to be paid very well and they

5227
02:53:31,670 --> 02:53:29,279
deserve to be paid very well because

5228
02:53:33,349 --> 02:53:31,680
nobody wants to do this voluntarily

5229
02:53:34,389 --> 02:53:33,359
unless it's your own garbage and nobody

5230
02:53:35,990 --> 02:53:34,399
else does it then

5231
02:53:38,070 --> 02:53:36,000
of course somebody will eventually need

5232
02:53:40,150 --> 02:53:38,080
to do it so

5233
02:53:41,990 --> 02:53:40,160
how can we perform this allocation of

5234
02:53:44,150 --> 02:53:42,000
resources how can we make sure that the

5235
02:53:46,870 --> 02:53:44,160
garbage gets collected

5236
02:53:48,550 --> 02:53:46,880
and how can we make sure that people

5237
02:53:49,830 --> 02:53:48,560
have skin in the game in our larger

5238
02:53:53,030 --> 02:53:49,840
enterprises

5239
02:53:54,630 --> 02:53:53,040
in a system where we have ubi so i

5240
02:53:55,349 --> 02:53:54,640
suspect that something like a citizen

5241
02:54:02,150 --> 02:53:55,359
income

5242
02:54:05,510 --> 02:54:02,160
and communities decide uh what kind of

5243
02:54:07,030 --> 02:54:05,520
labor you perform and this money can be

5244
02:54:08,070 --> 02:54:07,040
given out as stipends for instance if

5245
02:54:09,670 --> 02:54:08,080
you want to write a book and your

5246
02:54:11,990 --> 02:54:09,680
community says yes sure write this book

5247
02:54:14,630 --> 02:54:12,000
it's a useful thing to do

5248
02:54:15,030 --> 02:54:14,640
uh right uh but but we still have a way

5249
02:54:20,230 --> 02:54:15,040
to

5250
02:54:22,630 --> 02:54:20,240
community management

5251
02:54:23,990 --> 02:54:22,640
or into education i think that would be

5252
02:54:25,269 --> 02:54:24,000
a good thing to have

5253
02:54:27,190 --> 02:54:25,279
i see a big danger in the

5254
02:54:29,030 --> 02:54:27,200
particularization of society if people

5255
02:54:29,590 --> 02:54:29,040
no longer feel as part of a greater

5256
02:54:31,429 --> 02:54:29,600
whole

5257
02:54:33,349 --> 02:54:31,439
and just see that society is that thing

5258
02:54:34,389 --> 02:54:33,359
that feeds me but it's something that i

5259
02:54:37,429 --> 02:54:34,399
don't need to put

5260
02:54:40,550 --> 02:54:37,439
things back into and uh

5261
02:54:42,070 --> 02:54:40,560
to uh think that ubi uh is going to

5262
02:54:44,070 --> 02:54:42,080
magically achieve this because people

5263
02:54:45,830 --> 02:54:44,080
have an intrinsic need of doing that

5264
02:54:47,830 --> 02:54:45,840
it's probably not going to work out

5265
02:54:49,590 --> 02:54:47,840
because they as if there is no force

5266
02:54:51,190 --> 02:54:49,600
ultimately for doing that over multiple

5267
02:54:53,670 --> 02:54:51,200
generation there's going to be drift

5268
02:54:54,870 --> 02:54:53,680
if there's to make you contribute to the

5269
02:54:57,590 --> 02:54:54,880
whole society yes

5270
02:54:59,429 --> 02:54:57,600
then eventually people uh will stop

5271
02:55:00,469 --> 02:54:59,439
contributing to society because of the

5272
02:55:02,550 --> 02:55:00,479
drift

5273
02:55:04,309 --> 02:55:02,560
our opinions are not intrinsically moral

5274
02:55:05,190 --> 02:55:04,319
there is no intrinsically moral power in

5275
02:55:07,349 --> 02:55:05,200
the universe

5276
02:55:09,429 --> 02:55:07,359
it's ecological if an opinion is

5277
02:55:10,389 --> 02:55:09,439
possible or if a behavior is possible it

5278
02:55:13,190 --> 02:55:10,399
will exist

5279
02:55:13,510 --> 02:55:13,200
if it's incentivized it will be abundant

5280
02:55:15,590 --> 02:55:13,520
and

5281
02:55:16,870 --> 02:55:15,600
if it's not helpful it doesn't matter it

5282
02:55:18,389 --> 02:55:16,880
will still be abundant

5283
02:55:20,230 --> 02:55:18,399
it will just mean that the system breaks

5284
02:55:23,110 --> 02:55:20,240
down and so uh

5285
02:55:23,750 --> 02:55:23,120
but i like the idea of ubi but in some

5286
02:55:25,750 --> 02:55:23,760
sense

5287
02:55:26,790 --> 02:55:25,760
the artist in eastern germany and so on

5288
02:55:29,910 --> 02:55:26,800
did have ubi

5289
02:55:31,349 --> 02:55:29,920
and we basically had a right to work but

5290
02:55:32,710 --> 02:55:31,359
we were not really forced to work in

5291
02:55:34,469 --> 02:55:32,720
eastern germany

5292
02:55:36,469 --> 02:55:34,479
and as a result we went bankrupt our

5293
02:55:38,630 --> 02:55:36,479
society went bankrupt

5294
02:55:40,230 --> 02:55:38,640
like literally and the houses that we

5295
02:55:42,150 --> 02:55:40,240
lived in they still had the pock marks

5296
02:55:44,070 --> 02:55:42,160
of the last war because in 40 years we

5297
02:55:46,230 --> 02:55:44,080
were not able to get enough resources

5298
02:55:47,190 --> 02:55:46,240
to fix the houses even in our capital

5299
02:55:50,469 --> 02:55:47,200
berlin

5300
02:55:52,070 --> 02:55:50,479
right it's ridiculous we always set a

5301
02:55:53,670 --> 02:55:52,080
shortage of labor for instance

5302
02:55:55,190 --> 02:55:53,680
the west had an enormous surplus of

5303
02:55:56,950 --> 02:55:55,200
labor and often didn't know

5304
02:55:58,950 --> 02:55:56,960
how to get people into gainful

5305
02:56:02,309 --> 02:55:58,960
employment because the productivity grew

5306
02:56:04,150 --> 02:56:02,319
but the population didn't shrink

5307
02:56:06,309 --> 02:56:04,160
and there was still labor competition so

5308
02:56:08,710 --> 02:56:06,319
working hours didn't shrink

5309
02:56:10,309 --> 02:56:08,720
and as a result a growing number of

5310
02:56:12,389 --> 02:56:10,319
people got unemployed because we were

5311
02:56:13,110 --> 02:56:12,399
unable to allocate labor in an efficient

5312
02:56:15,910 --> 02:56:13,120
way

5313
02:56:16,469 --> 02:56:15,920
in the west and in the east people we

5314
02:56:18,630 --> 02:56:16,479
just

5315
02:56:19,910 --> 02:56:18,640
absorbed productivity by being

5316
02:56:21,510 --> 02:56:19,920
unproductive

5317
02:56:23,990 --> 02:56:21,520
and to some degree this also happens in

5318
02:56:26,630 --> 02:56:24,000
the u.s right the healthcare system is

5319
02:56:28,150 --> 02:56:26,640
the most expensive system in the world

5320
02:56:28,790 --> 02:56:28,160
and it's largely because most of it

5321
02:56:31,190 --> 02:56:28,800
consists

5322
02:56:32,309 --> 02:56:31,200
from unproductive things in documenting

5323
02:56:33,830 --> 02:56:32,319
transactions

5324
02:56:36,070 --> 02:56:33,840
and most of the things that people do in

5325
02:56:37,510 --> 02:56:36,080
the u.s is arguably documentation of

5326
02:56:39,990 --> 02:56:37,520
transactions it's the biggest

5327
02:56:41,830 --> 02:56:40,000
part of employment apparently and so

5328
02:56:43,349 --> 02:56:41,840
people work very hard very long hours

5329
02:56:45,510 --> 02:56:43,359
and they still live in houses made from

5330
02:56:47,030 --> 02:56:45,520
tyvek and plywood have bad water

5331
02:56:48,630 --> 02:56:47,040
and have health care that makes them

5332
02:56:50,870 --> 02:56:48,640
bankrupt

5333
02:56:53,429 --> 02:56:50,880
and so the big question would be how can

5334
02:56:55,750 --> 02:56:53,439
we change this how can we implement

5335
02:56:56,950 --> 02:56:55,760
an architecture of systemic incentives

5336
02:56:59,110 --> 02:56:56,960
and i think that

5337
02:57:00,870 --> 02:56:59,120
ubi is not part of systemic thinking

5338
02:57:02,070 --> 02:57:00,880
it's only dealing with a single symptom

5339
02:57:03,349 --> 02:57:02,080
at a single level

5340
02:57:05,670 --> 02:57:03,359
and this is not the right way to

5341
02:57:08,550 --> 02:57:05,680
comprehend society you need to zoom out

5342
02:57:11,750 --> 02:57:08,560
and understand the superorganism

5343
02:57:13,670 --> 02:57:11,760
and is ai the solution or gai i think

5344
02:57:15,750 --> 02:57:13,680
that ai can help

5345
02:57:17,590 --> 02:57:15,760
definitely it can help in making com

5346
02:57:18,710 --> 02:57:17,600
simulations and models of extremely

5347
02:57:21,349 --> 02:57:18,720
complicated

5348
02:57:22,150 --> 02:57:21,359
things but there is also a difficulty if

5349
02:57:24,630 --> 02:57:22,160
we

5350
02:57:25,269 --> 02:57:24,640
start to compete with ais as individuals

5351
02:57:28,790 --> 02:57:25,279
and as

5352
02:57:30,550 --> 02:57:28,800
going to lose if we

5353
02:57:31,910 --> 02:57:30,560
succeed in building them they see no

5354
02:57:32,630 --> 02:57:31,920
reason why we should not succeed in

5355
02:57:33,990 --> 02:57:32,640
building them

5356
02:57:36,070 --> 02:57:34,000
right they need to be our friends in

5357
02:57:37,510 --> 02:57:36,080
some way yeah but if you teach the rocks

5358
02:57:39,590 --> 02:57:37,520
how to think you're not going to share

5359
02:57:41,030 --> 02:57:39,600
many purposes with them

5360
02:57:42,870 --> 02:57:41,040
how do you deal with a nested hierarchy

5361
02:57:44,070 --> 02:57:42,880
of eyes so for example someone says i

5362
02:57:45,830 --> 02:57:44,080
want to eat that chocolate but i don't

5363
02:57:47,750 --> 02:57:45,840
want to want to eat that chocolate

5364
02:57:50,150 --> 02:57:47,760
so it's like they have different eyes

5365
02:57:52,950 --> 02:57:50,160
different selves in your model

5366
02:57:54,950 --> 02:57:52,960
how does that work it happens in every

5367
02:57:57,830 --> 02:57:54,960
once of our minds we can see this

5368
02:57:59,590 --> 02:57:57,840
in children especially right so children

5369
02:58:02,070 --> 02:57:59,600
cannot establish behaviors

5370
02:58:03,429 --> 02:58:02,080
that integrate over long time spends and

5371
02:58:05,269 --> 02:58:03,439
i think the difference between these

5372
02:58:06,710 --> 02:58:05,279
different eyes is the time span the

5373
02:58:08,630 --> 02:58:06,720
length of the games over which they

5374
02:58:10,309 --> 02:58:08,640
integrate their rewards

5375
02:58:11,750 --> 02:58:10,319
so you have behaviors which integrate

5376
02:58:13,590 --> 02:58:11,760
over short time spends and those that

5377
02:58:15,510 --> 02:58:13,600
integrate over long time spans

5378
02:58:17,510 --> 02:58:15,520
and the difficulty is not so much to

5379
02:58:19,429 --> 02:58:17,520
find that integration and to implement

5380
02:58:21,349 --> 02:58:19,439
it the difficulty is mostly attention

5381
02:58:24,389 --> 02:58:21,359
deficit

5382
02:58:25,429 --> 02:58:24,399
sorry meaning if you are unable to

5383
02:58:27,990 --> 02:58:25,439
maintain

5384
02:58:29,110 --> 02:58:28,000
an intrinsic awareness on your long-term

5385
02:58:30,790 --> 02:58:29,120
goals

5386
02:58:33,190 --> 02:58:30,800
then you are in trouble if you are able

5387
02:58:35,670 --> 02:58:33,200
to model the world in deep time

5388
02:58:36,870 --> 02:58:35,680
uh that is the main difference between

5389
02:58:38,790 --> 02:58:36,880
powers between

5390
02:58:39,990 --> 02:58:38,800
power between individuals and groups is

5391
02:58:41,510 --> 02:58:40,000
whether you're able to

5392
02:58:43,510 --> 02:58:41,520
model the world deeply and act on

5393
02:58:45,910 --> 02:58:43,520
long-term plans so if we want

5394
02:58:47,510 --> 02:58:45,920
to have civilization prolonged then we

5395
02:58:49,910 --> 02:58:47,520
should identify with the highest eye

5396
02:58:52,230 --> 02:58:49,920
in the nested hierarchy we basically

5397
02:58:53,910 --> 02:58:52,240
should act on extremely long-term plans

5398
02:58:56,230 --> 02:58:53,920
right and we need to implement

5399
02:58:59,510 --> 02:58:56,240
incentives that allow us to

5400
02:59:01,269 --> 02:58:59,520
act on such long-term plans and i think

5401
02:59:02,469 --> 02:59:01,279
that for instance our present u.s

5402
02:59:05,510 --> 02:59:02,479
society

5403
02:59:08,230 --> 02:59:05,520
has forgotten this organization

5404
02:59:09,429 --> 02:59:08,240
so the idea was here to basically remove

5405
02:59:12,830 --> 02:59:09,439
structure

5406
02:59:14,070 --> 02:59:12,840
and as a result we have more freedom for

5407
02:59:18,710 --> 02:59:14,080
innovation

5408
02:59:20,630 --> 02:59:18,720
indistinguishable from cheating

5409
02:59:22,469 --> 02:59:20,640
and the us is a society that basically

5410
02:59:23,910 --> 02:59:22,479
cheats a lot on all levels what do you

5411
02:59:24,630 --> 02:59:23,920
mean that innovation is synonymous with

5412
02:59:27,110 --> 02:59:24,640
cheating

5413
02:59:27,990 --> 02:59:27,120
it means that you play short games it

5414
02:59:30,550 --> 02:59:28,000
means that you try

5415
02:59:32,309 --> 02:59:30,560
to take shortcuts instead of doing the

5416
02:59:34,469 --> 02:59:32,319
right thing you do something that

5417
02:59:36,389 --> 02:59:34,479
creates a little bit more dirt here and

5418
02:59:39,190 --> 02:59:36,399
a sludge and toxic waste and you hope

5419
02:59:42,230 --> 02:59:39,200
you are able to deal with it later

5420
02:59:43,670 --> 02:59:42,240
well you can innovate and build wind

5421
02:59:45,670 --> 02:59:43,680
farms no

5422
02:59:47,590 --> 02:59:45,680
you can innovate productive technologies

5423
02:59:49,830 --> 02:59:47,600
so not all innovation is cheating

5424
02:59:50,950 --> 02:59:49,840
in that sense no of course not but uh in

5425
02:59:54,710 --> 02:59:50,960
some sense the

5426
02:59:55,990 --> 02:59:54,720
way in which you uh i comprehend our war

5427
02:59:59,910 --> 02:59:56,000
in society is to try to

5428
03:00:02,070 --> 02:59:59,920
move upwards by innovating and

5429
03:00:04,070 --> 03:00:02,080
a society that is well organized should

5430
03:00:05,190 --> 03:00:04,080
not be focused on moving everybody

5431
03:00:07,510 --> 03:00:05,200
upwards it's

5432
03:00:09,830 --> 03:00:07,520
about moving everybody inwards everybody

5433
03:00:11,510 --> 03:00:09,840
should get better at what they're doing

5434
03:00:13,670 --> 03:00:11,520
we want to have

5435
03:00:14,870 --> 03:00:13,680
in some sense the goal is not to make

5436
03:00:16,950 --> 03:00:14,880
bread cheaper

5437
03:00:18,309 --> 03:00:16,960
and more abundant because the bread is

5438
03:00:19,590 --> 03:00:18,319
already abundant you want to make it

5439
03:00:20,230 --> 03:00:19,600
better and more wholesome and more

5440
03:00:22,309 --> 03:00:20,240
healthy

5441
03:00:24,150 --> 03:00:22,319
instead we invent kinds of yeast that

5442
03:00:27,190 --> 03:00:24,160
make the bread go up faster

5443
03:00:30,550 --> 03:00:27,200
but that give a whole generation

5444
03:00:33,590 --> 03:00:30,560
problems with digesting it right so uh

5445
03:00:35,349 --> 03:00:33,600
having gluten intolerance is now a

5446
03:00:36,309 --> 03:00:35,359
widespread and ubiquitous phenomenon

5447
03:00:39,269 --> 03:00:36,319
despite

5448
03:00:40,389 --> 03:00:39,279
our civilization having been adapted to

5449
03:00:42,550 --> 03:00:40,399
uh

5450
03:00:44,230 --> 03:00:42,560
bread and yeast and wheat for a long

5451
03:00:46,469 --> 03:00:44,240
time it's because we changed the weeds

5452
03:00:48,150 --> 03:00:46,479
faster than we could adapt to them

5453
03:00:49,750 --> 03:00:48,160
and the way that we would adapt to them

5454
03:00:51,429 --> 03:00:49,760
would be by evolution which means

5455
03:00:53,510 --> 03:00:51,439
selection which means technically

5456
03:00:54,710 --> 03:00:53,520
all these kids with celiac disease and

5457
03:00:57,190 --> 03:00:54,720
the people with

5458
03:00:58,469 --> 03:00:57,200
mild gluten intolerance should have less

5459
03:01:01,030 --> 03:00:58,479
offspring and then after

5460
03:01:02,630 --> 03:01:01,040
a long time we have adapted to the new

5461
03:01:03,750 --> 03:01:02,640
kinds of yeast is this a price that we

5462
03:01:05,670 --> 03:01:03,760
are going to pay

5463
03:01:07,830 --> 03:01:05,680
for having the bread uh being a little

5464
03:01:11,030 --> 03:01:07,840
bit cheaper probably not right

5465
03:01:11,750 --> 03:01:11,040
and so by saying we allow bread like

5466
03:01:13,510 --> 03:01:11,760
this

5467
03:01:15,429 --> 03:01:13,520
or even bread we suspect that it works

5468
03:01:17,990 --> 03:01:15,439
like this this is cheating

5469
03:01:18,550 --> 03:01:18,000
or if you see for instance the current

5470
03:01:21,670 --> 03:01:18,560
increase

5471
03:01:21,990 --> 03:01:21,680
of uh disorders that are developmental

5472
03:01:23,750 --> 03:01:22,000
like

5473
03:01:26,309 --> 03:01:23,760
um sorry when you say cheating you mean

5474
03:01:28,070 --> 03:01:26,319
it's a net detriment to the society

5475
03:01:29,429 --> 03:01:28,080
it's basically where somebody knows that

5476
03:01:32,469 --> 03:01:29,439
what they're doing is wrong

5477
03:01:33,030 --> 03:01:32,479
if they take a long perspective if you

5478
03:01:34,550 --> 03:01:33,040
say

5479
03:01:36,309 --> 03:01:34,560
if you would believe in god would god

5480
03:01:39,269 --> 03:01:36,319
want you to do that

5481
03:01:40,870 --> 03:01:39,279
this is cheating if it is what uh what

5482
03:01:42,870 --> 03:01:40,880
god wouldn't want you to do

5483
03:01:44,710 --> 03:01:42,880
and what god wants you to do is to play

5484
03:01:45,190 --> 03:01:44,720
a very very long game is to do the right

5485
03:01:48,230 --> 03:01:45,200
thing

5486
03:01:49,269 --> 03:01:48,240
to the best of your knowledge and doing

5487
03:01:51,110 --> 03:01:49,279
a thing that

5488
03:01:53,590 --> 03:01:51,120
might work relatively well in the short

5489
03:01:56,469 --> 03:01:53,600
term but in the long term kills the bees

5490
03:01:57,590 --> 03:01:56,479
or increases the prevalence of autism

5491
03:01:59,190 --> 03:01:57,600
spectrum disorder

5492
03:02:00,950 --> 03:01:59,200
because you put stuff in their foot that

5493
03:02:02,790 --> 03:02:00,960
doesn't kill rats in three months but

5494
03:02:04,790 --> 03:02:02,800
disrupt their angular criminal signaling

5495
03:02:06,710 --> 03:02:04,800
during developmental periods

5496
03:02:08,309 --> 03:02:06,720
right this is what not what you should

5497
03:02:10,550 --> 03:02:08,319
be doing

5498
03:02:12,950 --> 03:02:10,560
and this doesn't mean that uh simple

5499
03:02:16,550 --> 03:02:12,960
blind activism is the answer activists

5500
03:02:19,590 --> 03:02:16,560
often know less about a subject uh

5501
03:02:20,950 --> 03:02:19,600
somebody who is um

5502
03:02:22,870 --> 03:02:20,960
has a neutral position a neutral

5503
03:02:25,110 --> 03:02:22,880
perspective on the thing activism is

5504
03:02:26,710 --> 03:02:25,120
distorting your perspective on things

5505
03:02:28,150 --> 03:02:26,720
and the people that have the most

5506
03:02:29,910 --> 03:02:28,160
distorted perspective

5507
03:02:31,269 --> 03:02:29,920
also tend to be the most activist about

5508
03:02:32,550 --> 03:02:31,279
it if you think about it right because

5509
03:02:33,830 --> 03:02:32,560
you are why is that who gets most

5510
03:02:35,750 --> 03:02:33,840
agitated about it

5511
03:02:38,150 --> 03:02:35,760
if you are extremely agitated about a

5512
03:02:40,790 --> 03:02:38,160
subject that is not important

5513
03:02:41,269 --> 03:02:40,800
you are going to be the activist if you

5514
03:02:42,870 --> 03:02:41,279
uh

5515
03:02:45,030 --> 03:02:42,880
the loudest voices that are the most

5516
03:02:46,550 --> 03:02:45,040
emotional yeah well if you or

5517
03:02:48,150 --> 03:02:46,560
the other way around if you are the most

5518
03:02:48,950 --> 03:02:48,160
emotional person you are you tend to be

5519
03:02:51,030 --> 03:02:48,960
the loudest one

5520
03:02:52,550 --> 03:02:51,040
i see yes yes and but of course it

5521
03:02:53,030 --> 03:02:52,560
doesn't mean that activism is per se

5522
03:02:55,590 --> 03:02:53,040
wrong

5523
03:02:57,429 --> 03:02:55,600
right uh it just means that uh this

5524
03:02:58,550 --> 03:02:57,439
certainty that the activist has about

5525
03:03:01,750 --> 03:02:58,560
things

5526
03:03:03,269 --> 03:03:01,760
is often not justified and it's

5527
03:03:05,590 --> 03:03:03,279
this is only basically a measured

5528
03:03:08,630 --> 03:03:05,600
message to my younger self

5529
03:03:09,830 --> 03:03:08,640
why what do you mean oh when i was 16

5530
03:03:11,590 --> 03:03:09,840
years old i needed

5531
03:03:13,030 --> 03:03:11,600
knew exactly what was in the best

5532
03:03:15,590 --> 03:03:13,040
interest of the working class

5533
03:03:17,349 --> 03:03:15,600
were you a marxist yeah of course i grew

5534
03:03:18,389 --> 03:03:17,359
up in the system and it made so much

5535
03:03:20,710 --> 03:03:18,399
sense and the crisis

5536
03:03:22,070 --> 03:03:20,720
you're an activist an activist yeah i

5537
03:03:25,510 --> 03:03:22,080
was basically

5538
03:03:27,990 --> 03:03:25,520
willing to be an activist about this and

5539
03:03:29,990 --> 03:03:28,000
when the war came down i was very much

5540
03:03:31,830 --> 03:03:30,000
in favor of not reunifying with western

5541
03:03:33,030 --> 03:03:31,840
germany but i wanted to have a model

5542
03:03:36,710 --> 03:03:33,040
that is more like uh

5543
03:03:38,790 --> 03:03:36,720
scandinavia and uh basically a third way

5544
03:03:40,309 --> 03:03:38,800
one that wouldn't be as all-out

5545
03:03:42,790 --> 03:03:40,319
capitalist and so on

5546
03:03:44,630 --> 03:03:42,800
i also thought this idea of keeping the

5547
03:03:46,469 --> 03:03:44,640
factories collectivist instead of having

5548
03:03:47,830 --> 03:03:46,479
them owned by billionaires

5549
03:03:50,309 --> 03:03:47,840
would be much more just and therefore

5550
03:03:51,830 --> 03:03:50,319
desirable right similar to how many

5551
03:03:53,110 --> 03:03:51,840
millennials see it right now which say

5552
03:03:53,990 --> 03:03:53,120
nobody should be a billionaire a

5553
03:03:57,110 --> 03:03:54,000
billionaire shouldn't

5554
03:03:58,870 --> 03:03:57,120
exist because it's so unjust but uh

5555
03:04:00,950 --> 03:03:58,880
and i thought when our working class

5556
03:04:02,630 --> 03:04:00,960
voluntarily decided to be exploited by

5557
03:04:04,230 --> 03:04:02,640
billionaires again which they did when

5558
03:04:06,389 --> 03:04:04,240
they voted for reunification

5559
03:04:08,230 --> 03:04:06,399
under the conditions that were on offer

5560
03:04:09,990 --> 03:04:08,240
i thought they were confused and being

5561
03:04:11,510 --> 03:04:10,000
manipulated by the press

5562
03:04:13,110 --> 03:04:11,520
and there was enough evidence that this

5563
03:04:14,150 --> 03:04:13,120
manipulation took place right there was

5564
03:04:16,469 --> 03:04:14,160
a lot of propaganda

5565
03:04:18,389 --> 03:04:16,479
for making that happen but what i was

5566
03:04:20,710 --> 03:04:18,399
too stupid to realize is

5567
03:04:22,070 --> 03:04:20,720
that this idea of justice only existed

5568
03:04:24,550 --> 03:04:22,080
in my own head

5569
03:04:26,150 --> 03:04:24,560
and what was real to people was under

5570
03:04:27,030 --> 03:04:26,160
which conditions do you send your kids

5571
03:04:28,389 --> 03:04:27,040
to school

5572
03:04:31,670 --> 03:04:28,399
what kind of food do you have on the

5573
03:04:34,790 --> 03:04:31,680
table what's the quality of your yogurt

5574
03:04:36,550 --> 03:04:34,800
how nice is your apartment what's the

5575
03:04:37,190 --> 03:04:36,560
quality of your carpet how many days of

5576
03:04:38,630 --> 03:04:37,200
holiday do

5577
03:04:41,030 --> 03:04:38,640
and that matters more than billionaires

5578
03:04:42,710 --> 03:04:41,040
owning a factory of course

5579
03:04:44,389 --> 03:04:42,720
it really matters it really matters what

5580
03:04:44,630 --> 03:04:44,399
the what are your living conditions and

5581
03:04:48,389 --> 03:04:44,640
you

5582
03:04:50,070 --> 03:04:48,399
can unleash innovation

5583
03:04:51,429 --> 03:04:50,080
because he is a billionaire can control

5584
03:04:53,510 --> 03:04:51,439
resources in which that

5585
03:04:55,110 --> 03:04:53,520
a state-run committee or functionaries

5586
03:04:57,349 --> 03:04:55,120
of the party cannot

5587
03:04:58,630 --> 03:04:57,359
right uh this is the better society so

5588
03:05:00,550 --> 03:04:58,640
inequality is not

5589
03:05:02,389 --> 03:05:00,560
bad as long as the lowest tier has a

5590
03:05:03,269 --> 03:05:02,399
certain objective level of life

5591
03:05:07,269 --> 03:05:03,279
satisfaction

5592
03:05:09,349 --> 03:05:07,279
yeah i think it's very hard to justify

5593
03:05:10,389 --> 03:05:09,359
a society that uh where you have

5594
03:05:12,630 --> 03:05:10,399
equality

5595
03:05:15,190 --> 03:05:12,640
but everybody lives a shitty life it's

5596
03:05:15,990 --> 03:05:15,200
much easier to justify in a society in

5597
03:05:19,670 --> 03:05:16,000
which

5598
03:05:22,550 --> 03:05:19,680
the medium income is very high and

5599
03:05:24,550 --> 03:05:22,560
the poor people live a good life and uh

5600
03:05:27,510 --> 03:05:24,560
there is an extremely high inequality

5601
03:05:28,790 --> 03:05:27,520
inequality is not intrinsically bad the

5602
03:05:31,990 --> 03:05:28,800
question is

5603
03:05:33,670 --> 03:05:32,000
whether it's justifiable and or

5604
03:05:35,830 --> 03:05:33,680
the opposite whether the fight against

5605
03:05:37,429 --> 03:05:35,840
inequality is justified by creating a

5606
03:05:39,349 --> 03:05:37,439
world that is intrinsically better

5607
03:05:41,269 --> 03:05:39,359
and i think most people would agree that

5608
03:05:43,349 --> 03:05:41,279
a world in which the majority lives

5609
03:05:45,990 --> 03:05:43,359
better is the better world

5610
03:05:47,910 --> 03:05:46,000
right so this was the thing for i didn't

5611
03:05:49,190 --> 03:05:47,920
understand the systemic relationships

5612
03:05:50,309 --> 03:05:49,200
and i thought that differently you were

5613
03:05:51,670 --> 03:05:50,319
certain about it when you were

5614
03:05:53,349 --> 03:05:51,680
successful yes of course

5615
03:05:54,790 --> 03:05:53,359
because i didn't see the contradictions

5616
03:05:57,830 --> 03:05:54,800
yet i saw

5617
03:06:00,710 --> 03:05:57,840
a simple logical connection

5618
03:06:02,630 --> 03:06:00,720
that flew from the marxist theory that i

5619
03:06:03,910 --> 03:06:02,640
saw the antagonism between the ruling

5620
03:06:06,469 --> 03:06:03,920
class and the working class

5621
03:06:08,230 --> 03:06:06,479
i saw the injustice that would result

5622
03:06:09,429 --> 03:06:08,240
from the system i saw the limitations

5623
03:06:11,429 --> 03:06:09,439
that existed

5624
03:06:13,429 --> 03:06:11,439
within that system i saw the trend of

5625
03:06:14,070 --> 03:06:13,439
capitalism to destroy its environment

5626
03:06:17,110 --> 03:06:14,080
and itself

5627
03:06:18,070 --> 03:06:17,120
and to use more resources than it could

5628
03:06:21,510 --> 03:06:18,080
replace

5629
03:06:22,950 --> 03:06:21,520
and externalize the cost of production

5630
03:06:24,710 --> 03:06:22,960
to the environment and to

5631
03:06:27,110 --> 03:06:24,720
people that were not part of the markets

5632
03:06:28,469 --> 03:06:27,120
and so on but

5633
03:06:30,469 --> 03:06:28,479
i didn't understand that the

5634
03:06:31,590 --> 03:06:30,479
alternatives all attainable alternatives

5635
03:06:33,030 --> 03:06:31,600
were worse

5636
03:06:34,950 --> 03:06:33,040
and that the fact that our my own

5637
03:06:37,349 --> 03:06:34,960
society was worse was not the

5638
03:06:39,269 --> 03:06:37,359
result of lack of trying i thought it

5639
03:06:40,230 --> 03:06:39,279
was basically moral shortcomings of our

5640
03:06:42,309 --> 03:06:40,240
government

5641
03:06:43,990 --> 03:06:42,319
that led to the fact that socialism as

5642
03:06:45,190 --> 03:06:44,000
we experienced it had worse outcomes

5643
03:06:47,110 --> 03:06:45,200
than capitalism as

5644
03:06:49,030 --> 03:06:47,120
other people experienced it i didn't

5645
03:06:50,550 --> 03:06:49,040
understand that the capitalism that

5646
03:06:52,550 --> 03:06:50,560
existed in western germany

5647
03:06:54,469 --> 03:06:52,560
was a system that was constructed in a

5648
03:06:55,750 --> 03:06:54,479
better way than the socialism that

5649
03:06:57,429 --> 03:06:55,760
existed in the east

5650
03:06:59,030 --> 03:06:57,439
now the difficulty is the capitalism

5651
03:07:00,309 --> 03:06:59,040
that exists in western germany is also

5652
03:07:03,190 --> 03:07:00,319
not sustainable in the wrong and it's

5653
03:07:05,590 --> 03:07:03,200
also going to crash as far as we can see

5654
03:07:06,230 --> 03:07:05,600
in the us same thing same yeah same

5655
03:07:07,910 --> 03:07:06,240
thing

5656
03:07:09,510 --> 03:07:07,920
only worse because the system is larger

5657
03:07:09,990 --> 03:07:09,520
and the feedback loops are longer so

5658
03:07:11,429 --> 03:07:10,000
they're less

5659
03:07:13,670 --> 03:07:11,439
effective so it's better in the short

5660
03:07:15,030 --> 03:07:13,680
run uh if you have the system

5661
03:07:17,030 --> 03:07:15,040
we're playing the best level of the game

5662
03:07:18,230 --> 03:07:17,040
right now democracy works relatively

5663
03:07:20,309 --> 03:07:18,240
well in cities

5664
03:07:22,309 --> 03:07:20,319
and city-states and it's very difficult

5665
03:07:23,910 --> 03:07:22,319
to get it to work at the state level and

5666
03:07:24,550 --> 03:07:23,920
it's almost impossible to make it

5667
03:07:27,750 --> 03:07:24,560
effective

5668
03:07:29,190 --> 03:07:27,760
on a level of large nation state because

5669
03:07:30,630 --> 03:07:29,200
the feedback loops are too long right

5670
03:07:32,389 --> 03:07:30,640
it's very difficult to

5671
03:07:35,670 --> 03:07:32,399
set the incentives for governance rate

5672
03:07:37,590 --> 03:07:35,680
so do we need a global government

5673
03:07:39,510 --> 03:07:37,600
in some sense we need i think if we want

5674
03:07:40,870 --> 03:07:39,520
to regulate our relationship with the

5675
03:07:42,230 --> 03:07:40,880
environment properly

5676
03:07:43,990 --> 03:07:42,240
because otherwise we will have a

5677
03:07:45,510 --> 03:07:44,000
competition

5678
03:07:47,750 --> 03:07:45,520
about the things that we don't want to

5679
03:07:49,510 --> 03:07:47,760
compete about for instance

5680
03:07:51,269 --> 03:07:49,520
if we don't have a global government but

5681
03:07:53,269 --> 03:07:51,279
we have free trade we might have a

5682
03:07:55,110 --> 03:07:53,279
competition about who is willing to

5683
03:07:56,389 --> 03:07:55,120
allow uh the destruction of the

5684
03:07:58,389 --> 03:07:56,399
environment locally

5685
03:08:00,469 --> 03:07:58,399
more than others right well who is

5686
03:08:02,790 --> 03:08:00,479
willing to accept verse

5687
03:08:04,550 --> 03:08:02,800
conditions for their working class and

5688
03:08:06,630 --> 03:08:04,560
so if you had a global government you

5689
03:08:08,309 --> 03:08:06,640
would be able to regulate that

5690
03:08:09,590 --> 03:08:08,319
but if you on the other end have a

5691
03:08:10,870 --> 03:08:09,600
global government you don't have a

5692
03:08:12,309 --> 03:08:10,880
competition between different

5693
03:08:13,990 --> 03:08:12,319
governments anymore so

5694
03:08:15,510 --> 03:08:14,000
you have no incentive for the government

5695
03:08:18,630 --> 03:08:15,520
to govern well

5696
03:08:19,590 --> 03:08:18,640
how do you deal with that one and so as

5697
03:08:21,510 --> 03:08:19,600
a species

5698
03:08:23,590 --> 03:08:21,520
or as uh people that have political

5699
03:08:25,190 --> 03:08:23,600
theories we have not found universal

5700
03:08:26,870 --> 03:08:25,200
answers to these extremely difficult

5701
03:08:31,030 --> 03:08:26,880
questions

5702
03:08:33,110 --> 03:08:31,040
yoshi it's been extremely pleasurable

5703
03:08:35,030 --> 03:08:33,120
thank you so much it's probably the most

5704
03:08:36,230 --> 03:08:35,040
edifying and substantive podcast that i

5705
03:08:38,469 --> 03:08:36,240
have i don't know a subject that we

5706
03:08:42,309 --> 03:08:38,479
didn't touch on

5707
03:08:46,830 --> 03:08:42,319
menus thank you so much man

5708
03:08:46,840 --> 03:08:55,590
conversation

5709
03:08:59,030 --> 03:08:58,070
by the way with respect to the social

5710
03:09:01,030 --> 03:08:59,040
justice movement

5711
03:09:02,150 --> 03:09:01,040
it's difficult i think to say in the

5712
03:09:03,750 --> 03:09:02,160
long term

5713
03:09:05,830 --> 03:09:03,760
whether it's a good thing or not it's

5714
03:09:08,150 --> 03:09:05,840
basically an ideological movement that

5715
03:09:11,030 --> 03:09:08,160
tries to become state religion and this

5716
03:09:11,670 --> 03:09:11,040
uh seems to be poised to do so and i

5717
03:09:14,870 --> 03:09:11,680
suspect

5718
03:09:15,990 --> 03:09:14,880
uh the reason why it is emerging it's

5719
03:09:18,950 --> 03:09:16,000
part is social media

5720
03:09:19,750 --> 03:09:18,960
right so social media is creating

5721
03:09:22,309 --> 03:09:19,760
incentives

5722
03:09:23,269 --> 03:09:22,319
for agricores to emerge and to possess

5723
03:09:25,830 --> 03:09:23,279
people

5724
03:09:27,750 --> 03:09:25,840
and the other thing is that the

5725
03:09:28,550 --> 03:09:27,760
mainstream society is not working very

5726
03:09:31,590 --> 03:09:28,560
well

5727
03:09:33,590 --> 03:09:31,600
and this leads to revolutionary

5728
03:09:35,429 --> 03:09:33,600
movements and

5729
03:09:37,670 --> 03:09:35,439
a part of social justice is about

5730
03:09:39,269 --> 03:09:37,680
redistribution of resources it's a

5731
03:09:41,349 --> 03:09:39,279
weird way of being a leftist in which

5732
03:09:43,110 --> 03:09:41,359
you don't care so much about

5733
03:09:44,950 --> 03:09:43,120
the economic conditions under which

5734
03:09:46,550 --> 03:09:44,960
people actually exist but you care about

5735
03:09:48,870 --> 03:09:46,560
the identities of people

5736
03:09:49,670 --> 03:09:48,880
so you don't care about the contrast

5737
03:09:51,510 --> 03:09:49,680
between

5738
03:09:53,110 --> 03:09:51,520
people living in chats and people living

5739
03:09:56,469 --> 03:09:53,120
in palaces but you

5740
03:09:59,750 --> 03:09:56,479
care about palestinian quotas for

5741
03:10:01,670 --> 03:09:59,760
your own people and so it seems to be a

5742
03:10:05,030 --> 03:10:01,680
movement that is largely driven

5743
03:10:07,349 --> 03:10:05,040
by uh the upper middle class

5744
03:10:08,229 --> 03:10:07,359
uh trying to get in the lower under

5745
03:10:11,030 --> 03:10:08,239
upper class

5746
03:10:12,150 --> 03:10:11,040
something like that right it's mostly

5747
03:10:14,309 --> 03:10:12,160
academics

5748
03:10:15,910 --> 03:10:14,319
that are already you could say in a

5749
03:10:19,349 --> 03:10:15,920
privileged position

5750
03:10:22,710 --> 03:10:19,359
uh and i'm putting this into square

5751
03:10:25,190 --> 03:10:22,720
skateboards because uh academia is uh

5752
03:10:26,150 --> 03:10:25,200
more open in a society that than it has

5753
03:10:29,830 --> 03:10:26,160
been for

5754
03:10:31,510 --> 03:10:29,840
most of the existence of humanity and

5755
03:10:33,349 --> 03:10:31,520
so in some sense the society is very

5756
03:10:34,630 --> 03:10:33,359
democratic in the sense that everybody

5757
03:10:36,790 --> 03:10:34,640
in the society is

5758
03:10:38,630 --> 03:10:36,800
free to become an oligarch and enter the

5759
03:10:41,110 --> 03:10:38,640
ruling class

5760
03:10:42,870 --> 03:10:41,120
and of course the society is not set up

5761
03:10:44,630 --> 03:10:42,880
in such a way that everybody can become

5762
03:10:45,910 --> 03:10:44,640
an oligarch it also would not work like

5763
03:10:48,710 --> 03:10:45,920
this and not everybody

5764
03:10:49,590 --> 03:10:48,720
is has the necessary traits to become an

5765
03:10:52,389 --> 03:10:49,600
oligarch

5766
03:10:53,990 --> 03:10:52,399
so the whole thing is in some sense

5767
03:10:55,670 --> 03:10:54,000
rigged but it's not rigged as it was

5768
03:10:58,550 --> 03:10:55,680
before where your birth decided

5769
03:11:00,389 --> 03:10:58,560
everything else and when you tried to

5770
03:11:02,630 --> 03:11:00,399
get away from what you were born into

5771
03:11:04,469 --> 03:11:02,640
people would go after you and kill you

5772
03:11:05,670 --> 03:11:04,479
and most of the previous social

5773
03:11:08,710 --> 03:11:05,680
movements for instance the

5774
03:11:10,870 --> 03:11:08,720
politics in cyrus russia were

5775
03:11:12,070 --> 03:11:10,880
working against the system of indentured

5776
03:11:14,950 --> 03:11:12,080
servitude or

5777
03:11:16,389 --> 03:11:14,960
the communists in france which started

5778
03:11:18,469 --> 03:11:16,399
the french revolution

5779
03:11:19,750 --> 03:11:18,479
were going against the monarchy which

5780
03:11:22,309 --> 03:11:19,760
was no longer

5781
03:11:23,910 --> 03:11:22,319
able to manage society in in the right

5782
03:11:26,229 --> 03:11:23,920
way right people were starving

5783
03:11:27,990 --> 03:11:26,239
despite an increase in productivity and

5784
03:11:30,550 --> 03:11:28,000
this mismanagement of society

5785
03:11:31,190 --> 03:11:30,560
had to be addressed and it was addressed

5786
03:11:34,070 --> 03:11:31,200
uh

5787
03:11:34,550 --> 03:11:34,080
in a way that was extremely brutal and

5788
03:11:38,469 --> 03:11:34,560
led

5789
03:11:40,309 --> 03:11:38,479
to by itself to starvation and to earn

5790
03:11:41,510 --> 03:11:40,319
the destruction of a lot of culture and

5791
03:11:45,990 --> 03:11:41,520
a lot of things that were

5792
03:11:49,190 --> 03:11:46,000
beautiful and probably deserve to be

5793
03:11:51,510 --> 03:11:49,200
maintained but the society it's itself

5794
03:11:52,469 --> 03:11:51,520
that was being destroyed was no more

5795
03:11:54,150 --> 03:11:52,479
sustainable

5796
03:11:55,590 --> 03:11:54,160
and that was the reason why this

5797
03:11:58,150 --> 03:11:55,600
evolutionary movement

5798
03:11:59,750 --> 03:11:58,160
propped up came up and then you have

5799
03:12:02,630 --> 03:11:59,760
violent revolutionary movements

5800
03:12:03,269 --> 03:12:02,640
that are destructive uh that it's this

5801
03:12:06,309 --> 03:12:03,279
is often

5802
03:12:07,030 --> 03:12:06,319
the result of uh your society not being

5803
03:12:09,349 --> 03:12:07,040
able to

5804
03:12:11,590 --> 03:12:09,359
implement mechanisms that perform

5805
03:12:13,670 --> 03:12:11,600
themselves in a more benevolent way

5806
03:12:15,110 --> 03:12:13,680
right in the us is stuck in this sense

5807
03:12:17,429 --> 03:12:15,120
it's stuck by

5808
03:12:18,469 --> 03:12:17,439
lots of mafias that take out resources

5809
03:12:19,990 --> 03:12:18,479
at every level

5810
03:12:21,590 --> 03:12:20,000
we're not able to build your

5811
03:12:23,030 --> 03:12:21,600
infrastructure anymore for that reason

5812
03:12:24,790 --> 03:12:23,040
for instance whenever we

5813
03:12:26,630 --> 03:12:24,800
try to build a new high-speed train the

5814
03:12:30,070 --> 03:12:26,640
money just evaporates

5815
03:12:30,710 --> 03:12:30,080
and when we try to hear cancer the

5816
03:12:32,309 --> 03:12:30,720
person

5817
03:12:34,070 --> 03:12:32,319
that has that concert typically goes

5818
03:12:36,070 --> 03:12:34,080
bankrupt in the process

5819
03:12:37,190 --> 03:12:36,080
so right something is wrong in that

5820
03:12:40,070 --> 03:12:37,200
whole system and

5821
03:12:41,269 --> 03:12:40,080
we don't have intrasystemic forces that

5822
03:12:44,309 --> 03:12:41,279
can repair the system

5823
03:12:45,750 --> 03:12:44,319
instead the system by virtue of its own

5824
03:12:48,070 --> 03:12:45,760
interest systemic forces

5825
03:12:49,510 --> 03:12:48,080
is getting worse so something needs to

5826
03:12:50,229 --> 03:12:49,520
change the system even if the

5827
03:12:54,309 --> 03:12:50,239
alternative

5828
03:12:56,790 --> 03:12:54,319
eventually will need to get its

5829
03:12:58,309 --> 03:12:56,800
together after it's taken power

5830
03:13:00,550 --> 03:12:58,319
so i suspect that's that's what's

5831
03:13:02,870 --> 03:13:00,560
happening and so if we zoom out large

5832
03:13:04,309 --> 03:13:02,880
far enough it's very hard to evaluate

5833
03:13:05,110 --> 03:13:04,319
whether the present revolutionary

5834
03:13:07,269 --> 03:13:05,120
movements

5835
03:13:09,269 --> 03:13:07,279
despite the problems that they are going

5836
03:13:12,710 --> 03:13:09,279
to cause and already causing

5837
03:13:14,630 --> 03:13:12,720
are wrong all right

5838
03:13:16,150 --> 03:13:14,640
eventually it's we are just large groups